Is Mclaren the Best package at current season?

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warmandog
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Joined: 03 Sep 2003, 19:03
Location: Dominican Republic

Is Mclaren the Best package at current season?

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Hi All , all the sports on earth had disnasty times, Football, Baseball and for sure our loved motorsports pinacle.
in recent years there was alot of post about the real ferrari supremacy, into a effor to reduce michael schumacher skill and raw speed, there was a lot of arguing and posting for that matter.
" The reality is that ferrari package is the shine point, not the driving skill from schumi" someones says even it was 89% from the car and 11% from the driver.....Now we have this mclaren reborning and found how easily this year mac can turn fast, whitout altering corners radio, that is a plus for drivers that try to go at the limit. for sure Alonso and Hamilton are today real contenders for WDC cause of that extreme and fast machinery.
and now the Question

Is The car..or is the driver?

regards
Alex C
Dominican Republic
Regards
Alex C
Dominican Republic

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

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It's the car. There is a very small handful of premier drivers in F1, but it's real simple... IF you give them a car that suits their style, and is the best car on the grid, they almost always win.
Right now, McLaren have done a much better job with development and are opening up a gap in performance between themselves and Ferrari. Not only do they have the pace, but now they are also out-qualifying Ferrari.
Ron Dennis is also enjoying the team dream, of having two quality drivers who aren't much aware of anyone else but their teammate... and beating that teammate. Just like in the glory years of Prost and Senna.
Dynasties come and go, no one team stays on top each and every year. The Ferrari glory years were long and bountiful, but with the retirement of MIchael Schumacher, a new era that right now, Ferrari are struggling with. I bet Todt is phoning Brawn every day asking him when he's ready to come out of his sabbatical.

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vyselegend
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Joined: 20 Feb 2006, 17:05
Location: Paris, France

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It appears clear now Mac Laren has found more pace than any other team during the first half of the season's developpement. Their rythm of developpement is stunning.
But it is the same every years, the teams begining the season with problems have to solve them and it cost developpement time, while those running well from the very start can focus totally on their program.

However, I'm surprised to see that Ferrari struggles a bit there, it's not only Mac Laren flying away with more pace, but also BMW and potentially Renault closing the gap to them. One might have suspected that they would have the upper hand, given the Bridgestone switch, but it seems their developpement program isn't steady enough to keep the momentum

Monaco wasn't a one off. I think Mac Laren will be VERY difficult to beat this year...

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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Mclaren made a car that is much more adaptable to different circuits than F2007. Ferrari can be dominant from time to time but Mclaren can win on any circuit. They also develop car much more efficiently than Ferrari and I's say that BMW and even RBR are more successful in applying developments than Ferrari.

mahesh248
mahesh248
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Joined: 05 Mar 2007, 12:05
Location: India

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ferrari are loosing it ! just dont have the pace and the overall confidence in the team is also fading off , i dont know what they are planning to do about it, at monaco i thought it was something to do with the wheel base and the characteristics of the car , now i know that they are really slow, time for them to think well, i am sure to expect similar results at Indy !

Venom
Venom
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Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 15:20
Location: Serbia

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Nobody can be dominant forever. Ferrari's massive success had to end for the sake of sport.

Regarding development I think we can only have little attempts to guess what makes Ferrari slow or McLaren fast. Otherwise they wouldn't spend at least something like 500million per year to slove those issues, but they would employ someone like me and you to tell them where they're going wrong so they can fix it for the next race :p

:mrgreen:
The trouble with the rat-race is that even if you win, you're still a rat.

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m3_lover
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
Location: St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada

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Actually the top 3 spenders in f1 from last year was Mclaren Ferrari and then Toyota and I quote from the speed channel..but I am having a hard time finding the actual information.

This is from 2005 I am guessing since the post was from june 18, 2006

McLaren: $400m
Toyota: $393m
Honda: $382m
BMW: $378m
Ferrari: $329m
Renault: $300m
Red Bull: $201m
Williams: $134m (this is a big surprise to me)
Super Aguri: $95m
Midland: $75m
Toro Rosso: $66m
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.

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m3_lover
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
Location: St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada

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Sorry for the double post but I got some information here

In March 2007 F1 Racing published its annual estimates of spending by Formula One teams. The total spending of all 11 teams in 2006 was estimated at $2,986 million. This was broken down as follows; Toyota $418.5 million, Ferrari $406.5m, McLaren $402m, Honda $380.5m, BMW Sauber $355m, Renault $324m, Red Bull $252m, Williams $195.5m, Midland F1/Spyker-MF1 $120m, Toro Rosso $75m, and Super Aguri $57 million.

Costs vary greatly from team to team; in 2006 teams such as Honda, Toyota, McLaren-Mercedes and Ferrari are estimated to have spent approximately $200 million on engines, Renault spent approximately $125 million and Cosworth's 2006 V8 was developed for $15 million.[13] In contrast to the 2006 season on which these figures are based, the 2007 sporting regulations ban all performance related engine development.[14]
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

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McLaren is obviously very

easy to control and suited to very different circuits. A while ago, we discussed the advantages of "packaging" the mass of the vehicle as close to CoG as possible, so that a very low polar moment is needed to overcome the inertia that opposes steering. That led me to think that perhaps McLaren has also been the most efficient in packaging downforce near the CoD. This would explain at least part of their vehicle's fairly easy adaptability.

The sidepods are cut really deep, with an additional shape that swoops upwards between the bottom of the pod and the floor plate. Then there's the additional mid-wing construction that seems to remain even on low DF circuits. The flow close to the top center line is managed with great care, as evidenced by the controlled layer flow separators a.k.a. "skate blades" on the airbox, the "viking horns" (managing disruptions in pressure behind the aperture?), the new front wing plane - not to mention the conjoined chimney and radiator inlet plate that must do a beautiful job of directing more air below the rear wing while generating a little bit of DF by themselves, too. And I haven't even paid too much attention to what's going on with their diffuser, deflectors and underbody etc.

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Image routed from F1grandprix.it

Ferrari obviously has a very different geometry and they propably wouldn't benefit from trying to replicate all that McLaren is doing. That is the highway to a place called "Second Best" and that's hardly their goal. Tombazis was instrumental in designing a very good car in 2005 and knows both of their drivers very well, so I trust they can find solutions that originate from their own "design heritage". The team had a dismal showing in Canada but that didn't give an entirely realistic picture ... Massa had a fairly good pace up until being flagged, especially with his history in Montreal, while Raikkonen's brakes worked only sporadically after the first SC/pitstop making a small feat out of actually finishing the race in points at all. Edit: And apparently there was also debris from Kubica's shunt caught on his wing or something.

Image
Image routed from F1grandprix.it

McLaren really is in a strong place, but part of it is the weakness of the competition and part of it is just "events beyond control". I'll give it three-four races before declaring that McLaren will run away with it ... the odds, looking at stats are staggering against Ferrari by now, but this season nothing really has been played out by the odds. Both Ferrari and McLaren have alternately been nearly a second faster than the other. That isn't very normal especially under such micro-managed technical regulations.

Edit:
Super Aguri $57 million
Wow, that's bang for the buck!
Last edited by checkered on 11 Jun 2007, 01:23, edited 1 time in total.

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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:wink:

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

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Thanks, manchild ...

... albeit looking at that image very closely, I feel a bit light-headed! :-k 8-[

modbaraban
modbaraban
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

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Very interesting post but

is this a mistake?
checkered wrote:Tombazis was instrumental in designing a very good car in 2005 and knows both of their drivers very well...
because we didn't see how actually good that car was because of the tyres or maybe it wasn't good at all... in fact the 2005 season was their biggest failure in this century...

maybe you meant 2004 or 2006?

@ manchild

I thought I'm seeing things :)

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

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Very interesting post but is this a mistake? ... because we didn't see how actually good that car was because of the tyres or maybe it wasn't good at all... in fact the 2005 season was their biggest failure in this century...
No mistake there, modbaraban. If you investigate further, I'm sure you'll notice that one Nikolas Tombazis worked as the chief aerodynamicist in 2004 - 05 and as the vehicle project director for McLaren in 2005. 8)

Edit: And thanks for the appreciation, but ... I'm kinda more thinking aloud about this and asking others whether there could be something to it rather than putting this out as some kind of solid fact.

modbaraban
modbaraban
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

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I didn't mean that it a fact. You just pointed out some things to consider and think about.

PS: and sorry about that 2005 mistake :lol: I was thinking about Ferrari... gotta give my tired and slightly drunk head a bit of sleep O:)

PS: I'm really amazed by the change of pace for Maccas since Spain. Seems that Monaco was NOT a joke... and there are hardly any visual changes to that car.


btw, I noticed the winglets aquired some sort of a horizontal CUT (that can't change much of course)

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kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

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We all expected ferrari to walk it this year, soley on account of their relationship with Bridgestone.


I have to say I'm somewhat shocked at the backward steps they've made. :shock: