Engine Unfreeze

[kooleracer]

They probably got the memo, either agree to unfreeze or be frozen while the others aren't.

And which rules in place will restrict Mercedes to develop their engines, while the other are? Or do you invent your own rules? Mercedes isn't obliged to change the rules because all teams have already agreed to them. Mercedes is thinking about extending the homologation date to mid season instead of February. To give Renault,Ferrari, Honda and themselves a change the develop the engine during the season for 2015 alone and not the years after that.

Mercedes is agreeing to this because this is the best for the sport and because Mercedes is also upgrading their engine to make their advantage even bigger. Ferrari, Renault en Honda might even be further behind Mercedes after the 2015 mid season homologation, so they have to be careful what they wish for. Mercedes isn't racing on full-power this season and their 2015 engine has according to rumors an additional 60-100hp (500bar fuel injection in 2015 as of the 250 bar now). Mercedes have restricted their drivers to use the full power in the race they are only able to use it in qualifying.

[diffuser]

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/for ... 5--f1.html



Wow that is very informative. So this talks about having More changes just this one time during the 2015 season. These changes would be over and above the 48% allowed during the offseason.

[GitanesBlondes]

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/for ... 5--f1.html



Wow that is very informative. So this talks about having More changes just this one time during the 2015 season. These changes would be over and above the 48% allowed during the offseason.

I love the bit where they are pretending to be concerned about cost...totally ignores the astronomical sum they spent to design and build their own engine in the near 3 years leading up to this season. I don't think it's costs they fear so much as it is a fear that Honda or Ferrari could potentially build something far better than what they have come up with.

[turbof1]

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/for ... 5--f1.html



Wow that is very informative. So this talks about having More changes just this one time during the 2015 season. These changes would be over and above the 48% allowed during the offseason.

I love the bit where they are pretending to be concerned about cost...totally ignores the astronomical sum they spent to design and build their own engine in the near 3 years leading up to this season. I don't think it's costs they fear so much as it is a fear that Honda or Ferrari could potentially build something far better than what they have come up with.

Of course it is; every team out there will try to get any advantage they can no matter what ethical concern you or I may have. Kaltenborn for instance tried to influence the fia by publicly stating Marussia and Caterham broke the rules by not showing up. But who is next in line at the FOM cash register if Caterham and Marussia get DQ'd from the championship? Yup you guessed it.

My point is that everyone out there would be doing the exact same thing in the position of Mercedes. Of course it's rubbish to talk about cost control (it makes logically speaking sense, but not motive-wise) when you are backed by such a giant company which already puts virtually unlimited resources in the team. This is all about having an advantage, a true fundamental aspect to the sport.

In this very same debacle, Renault, Ferrari and perhaps even Honda (do we have any official statement from them concerning the matter?) are lying their pants off if they claim this will not cost significantly more. It will. To the manufacturers of course and not the teams since the contracts have long been signed for multiple years. Which make again that Force India, Lotus and Williams are lying their pants off.

And in the end this is also what motivated their decision to agree: if Mercedes blocked the vote, the same thing would come up next year, at which point the deadline for the 2016 rules hasn't been reached yet. Only a majority vote is needed in that case, which would totally ignore any of Mercedes' wishes. By accepting now for 2015, again mercedes' vote in favor is needed to get in-season development next year, they atleast could put down very stringent conditions, with the most remarkable one being it's one year only. That decision is not to "to guarantee long-term stability" as Toto so marketing-like names it, but another case of advantage-maximizing.

They all are vicious bast*rds at the negotiation table. Don't let Monisha's pretty face distract you; she'll use it to rip yours off.

[FoxHound]

I love the bit where they are pretending to be concerned about cost...totally ignores the astronomical sum they spent to design and build their own engine in the near 3 years leading up to this season.

Er, makes total sense seen as though they EVERYONE is going to now have to spend MORE, teams receiving engines included.
And as we are now pretty much assured of 9 teams maximum next year, would you have the cash strapped Sauber and Force India teams pay more than they should?
Mercedes will supply 4 teams with engines next year compared to 2 for Renault and Ferrari and 1 for Honda.....who foots the bill should the discrepancy between cost and payment not be met...Mercedes more so of course.

Did any of this cross your mind?

I don't think it's costs they fear so much as it is a fear that Honda or Ferrari could potentially build something far better than what they have come up with.

What if Mercedes aren't humbled, and the gap is maintained or, crushingly for the sport, increased?
All 3 outcomes are plausible, after all. And if it ends up being a war of dollar spending attrition....Ferrari and Renault may as well wave the white flag now.
Both companies are not interested in spending 100's of millions to contest something that cost a fraction of this in terms of engines.

Something has to give. Mercedes advantage will be reduced is my view, but at what cost to the sport as a whole?

[bhall II]

Er, makes total sense seen as though they EVERYONE is going to now have to spend MORE, teams receiving engines included.

[...]

Please explain that.

If we know that development is the real expense, and that development is continuous regardless of the update schedule, how will costs increase significantly given a marginal increase in production? (The four PU limit will still be in effect.)

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/for ... 5--f1.html

Wow that is very informative. So this talks about having More changes just this one time during the 2015 season. These changes would be over and above the 48% allowed during the offseason.

The proposed defrost only changes the schedule of homologation. Rather than one big off-season update, manufacturers will have the option to split it over two parts.

From the linked article:

The proposal to lift the freeze is not designed to allow unlimited development, but to give manufacturers a bigger window to make changes.

So if, for example, they do not use up their full quota of tokens this winter, then under the latest proposal there will be a window to use 13 tokens early next season to introduce a new power unit in July.

[turbof1]

Er, makes total sense seen as though they EVERYONE is going to now have to spend MORE, teams receiving engines included.

[...]

Please explain that.

If we know that development is the real expense, and that development is continuous regardless of the update schedule, how will costs increase significantly given a marginal increase in production? (The four PU limit will still be in effect.)

The additional costs play inside the development mechanisms.

A long term development, a year, is differently structured and budgetted then let's say a half year development. the 2 different timelines mean differences in product prototyping, testing, man hours and pace of development. There are overlapping areas, but due the timeline you'll have a lot of incompatibilities, which only can be solved with more resources and more spending. Believe it or not, but costs will increase significant. They'll be developing both the tokens they didn't used and the tokens of the year after. And we both know the resources that didn't went to those unused tokens will go be put in the further developments of the tokens they did use during the winter.

Compare it the aero development. In 2012 teams were running 3 different development programs at the same time: the 2012 car, the 2013 car and the 2014 car. At a lot of teams, with the biggest example being Lotus, it left a gaping hole in finances.

However, the bill is not for everybody. Running contract will factor costs for development between seasons, but there are no clauses for in season performance development, simply because nobody was thinking this would become a possibilities at the time contracts were signed. So manufacturers can't pass the bill to the teams. Atleast not until the end of the contract.

[FoxHound]

@ben

In one of the links Wolff did say producing 8 engines to spec, in light of the defrost, would be alot more expensive than producing 4.
There was even mention of customer spec units to compensate for the cost I believe.

[Sevach]

They probably got the memo, either agree to unfreeze or be frozen while the others aren't.

And which rules in place will restrict Mercedes to develop their engines, while the other are? Or do you invent your own rules? Mercedes isn't obliged to change the rules because all teams have already agreed to them. Mercedes is thinking about extending the homologation date to mid season instead of February. To give Renault,Ferrari, Honda and themselves a change the develop the engine during the season for 2015 alone and not the years after that.

Mercedes is agreeing to this because this is the best for the sport and because Mercedes is also upgrading their engine to make their advantage even bigger. Ferrari, Renault en Honda might even be further behind Mercedes after the 2015 mid season homologation, so they have to be careful what they wish for. Mercedes isn't racing on full-power this season and their 2015 engine has according to rumors an additional 60-100hp (500bar fuel injection in 2015 as of the 250 bar now). Mercedes have restricted their drivers to use the full power in the race they are only able to use it in qualifying.

It happened before (Renault being allowed to "equalise" their V8) and Berniewas already making noises of doing it again, simply that, no reason to get all worked up, F1 politics are nasty and go beyond the rule book.

[bhall II]

The additional costs play inside the development mechanisms.

A long term development, a year, is differently structured and budgetted then let's say a half year development.
[...]

But, the thing is, this is a project that's scheduled to last until 2020, at which time engine manufacturers will have poured several billion dollars into research and development. With that in mind, it's rather difficult for me to consider an expedited update to be a significant added expense.

I think it's important to visualize the big picture here.

@ben

In one of the links Wolff did say producing 8 engines to spec, in light of the defrost, would be alot more expensive than producing 4.
There was even mention of customer spec units to compensate for the cost I believe.

Of course, he said that. That's Mercedes' party line.

[FoxHound]

Makes more sense than suggesting it doesnt cost more, no?

[djos]

They should never have been frozen for their debut season in the first place!

Brought to you by the Department of the Bleeding Obvious.

[turbof1]

The additional costs play inside the development mechanisms.

A long term development, a year, is differently structured and budgetted then let's say a half year development.
[...]

But, the thing is, this is a project that's scheduled to last until 2020, at which time engine manufacturers will have poured several billion dollars into research and development. With that in mind, it's rather difficult for me to consider an expedited update to be a significant added expense.

I think it's important to visualize the big picture here.

@ben

In one of the links Wolff did say producing 8 engines to spec, in light of the defrost, would be alot more expensive than producing 4.
There was even mention of customer spec units to compensate for the cost I believe.

Of course, he said that. That's Mercedes' party line.

The big picture was once a year development was allowed. When you allow the particular in-season development, you are not changing a detail, you are changing that big picture. It requires a speeded up development curve and more testing. Costs that otherwise would only occur if you only had to update the engine once a year.

All that being said, they should allow it provided no extra costs will pushed through on the teams in future contracts.

[FoxHound]

@ Turbo,

So who pays the bill for the additional costs?

[diffuser]

Er, makes total sense seen as though they EVERYONE is going to now have to spend MORE, teams receiving engines included.

[...]

Please explain that.

If we know that development is the real expense, and that development is continuous regardless of the update schedule, how will costs increase significantly given a marginal increase in production? (The four PU limit will still be in effect.)

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/for ... 5--f1.html

Wow that is very informative. So this talks about having More changes just this one time during the 2015 season. These changes would be over and above the 48% allowed during the offseason.

The proposed defrost only changes the schedule of homologation. Rather than one big off-season update, manufacturers will have the option to split it over two parts.

From the linked article:

The proposal to lift the freeze is not designed to allow unlimited development, but to give manufacturers a bigger window to make changes.

So if, for example, they do not use up their full quota of tokens this winter, then under the latest proposal there will be a window to use 13 tokens early next season to introduce a new power unit in July.

You are right but this could be interpreted as " if I have 1 unused token at the 2015 winter dead line.... I could use 13 token for a July PU update".