Front Wing Query

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
KernelKlink
KernelKlink
0
Joined: 12 Jun 2007, 05:27
Location: Australia

Front Wing Query

Post

Hi guys!

I am currently completing my PhD in computer science and am using the design of Formula One front wings as an illustrative example of how my work could be applied in a practical setting. I was curious as to whether anyone is aware of any race incidents caused by mid-race front wing adjustments (as in turning the front-wing up or down at a stop, as opposed to the loss of a nose-cone or something similar).

Also, I thought it might be fun to quote figures on how much teams invest in wind-tunnels and aerodynamic design in general. I know F1 magazine produces a pretty comprehensive survey/estimate of this type of thing, but for the life of me I cannot locate the correct issue :^]}

Finally, it would be great if I could get a nice simple schematic of a front wing - especially because my audience is unlikely to have any idea what I am talking about without some form of introductory diagram. Anyone know of a place where I could acquire such an image?

Thanks a million for all of your help, I will be sure to cite your assistance in my acknowledgements :^]}

Kind Regards,

Adam Berry
University of Tasmania
Australia

scarbs
scarbs
393
Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 09:47
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Post

Adam,
I have never heard of any 'incident' resulting from a front wing adjustment, beyond the change not suiting the car\tyres\track. Certainly never a crash or major technical failure.

Any figures for a teams investment in aero would be a gross estimation.

I have many pictures or graphics of front wings, email me with what you are after.

Scarbs@scarbsf1.com

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Post

You could try writing (paper) mail to the Renault factory in Enstone. Might help you out. Never know.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Post

I wouldn't dream of contradicting Scarbs. However, you have the incident at LeMans in 1999 with the Mercedes CLR car, where Mark Webber backflipped at Indianapolis corner during qualy. The car was reconstructed that night, modified (not adjusted, modified) for more downforce and put into the track again.

To Mercedes shame, the car didn't make it to Indy's corner: this time backflipped at Mulsanne... :shock:

Things wouldn't be THAT bad at this moment, but they got weirder...

Mr. Haug decided to race the remaining two cars with "instructions not to follow other cars closely at humps".

After four hours of race, Peter Dumbreck backflipped, again at Indy, on world TV.

It goes without saying that the Mercedes CLR project was cancelled on the spot.

Mark Webber backflipping over his teammates
Image

I've been discussing (and arguing with zac... ;)) about the subject of airborne cars, after Kubica's accident, here:

viewtopic.php?p=54313

Zac was the one that pointed me to read about LeMans 1999. Thanks to him, now I think that the problem is this:

Image

It's not a wing (well, not strictly speaking) and it's not through adjustment, so scarbs is (as usual) right, as far as I know. Of course, you could mention that they modified the car for more downforce (and failed spectacularly).

I've been wondering if the shape of an F1 car shouldn't be like the inverse of the CLR model: an inverted wing, raising the nose, like in this (yes, horrible, I agree) sketch I made quickly:

Image

There is also another problem that I talked about in that thread: the wing is designed to go straight ahead. It's sensitive to pitch (as the CLR shows), but the car could also be sensitive to yaw.

For example, we talked in that same thread about the NASCAR cars of old going airborne once they went backwards (when spinning on the track, of course). Like this:

Sequence I lifted from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt5XCCgwulA
Image

You can (barely) see that the car (Bill Elliot at Talladega) blows a tire in 1, goes sideways (and starts to lift) in 2 and, finally, lifts completely in 3 to crash against the fence. As soon as the car goes backwards, the body works like a wing. I don't think frontal wings have problems with yaw, but definitely could have it with pitch, so it's not only adjustments: the wing can be unstable aerodinamically, so, if the car lifts a little, it can change the force from downforce to lift.

I'm sure scarbs can judge if that could happen in a heavy bump or if F1 designers (probably) are aware of the problem and have worked to avoid it. After all, a bump over a kerb can change the angle of attack a lot more than any adjustment (or so I believe).
Ciro

User avatar
checkered
0
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

Post

Hi Adam,

I can certainly picture F1 front wing design as a dynamic “multi-objective optimization task” but am curious as to how the examples you cited can best be illustrative of what you’re intent on demonstrating. In a sense the wing is an integrated volume entity that can be differentiated into separate physical forces, each of which has a more or less designated purpose. Aerodynamic balance, flow separation and management, tyre temperature and wear, drag, downforce, under/oversteer, response and what have you.

No matter how you break down the design process and the underlying requirements initially, I have no reason not to think that a self organizing map or a virtual neural network could be created as a virtual aide to the aerodynamicists. (Not an expert myself, but have seen a few friends do applications in different fields of study.) But as the wings have to be (to a defined degree) immovable devices, I see mid-race front wing adjustments more as “race incidents” rather than causing them. Most often there’s an impression that the car behaves in an unpredictable manner for whatever reason and the team makes a very rough approximation to correct the handling as an extreme measure.

It certainly happens quite rarely since F1 TV directors almost always seem to feature the adjustment as it happens. I’m not aware of anyone keeping statistics of unforced errors/a marked improvement in performance following the operation ... not entirely impossible, but you’ll have your work cut out for you in case you actually want to research it. Given the number of races, the secrecy surrounding teams’ choices and the rapid advancements made in CFD and aerodynamics recently, do consider first whether there’s any qualitative or quantitative advantage to attempting such a thing.

Front wing shaping itself, in general, is one of the more liberally regulated areas of F1 design as exemplified by the many designs the teams currently have – there’s no universal template. As I’ve understood it, no-one even approaches extracting the maximum downforce the “regulatory template” allows for, since it would result in an unmanageable imbalance.

Where I would expect the major teams to have advanced applications of self organizing maps and such already is race tactics. Such operations aren’t featured widely in the media to my knowledge, but at least some teams have live links to their strategists “back home” throughout the races and I can only assume can extrapolate the best possible scenario in some detail for every actual situation given the realities of how the vehicles interact on the track during the race.

People tend to blame aerodynamics for “the lack of undertaking” and a few other popular gripes, but I do believe that teams have also become so good in their race management that the dynamics are sometimes, or most of the time, beyond the comprehension of the viewer. TV alone lacks the means of conveying the drama. What lies beyond is unfortunately reduced to observing the change in aerodynamics and the fashion of overtaking since those remain the readily observable parts of the equation, in addition to the drivers’ antics.

Tp
Tp
0
Joined: 02 Mar 2006, 15:52
Location: UK

Post

Well, I found the figures you were looking for regarding the cost of wind-tunnel operation and the other costs associated with the car.

By the way 2004 costs were the latest I could find...

Wind-Tunnel Operation
Ferrari -- $11.25m
Mclaren -- $9.96m
BMW -- $9.76m
Toyota -- $8.95m
Sauber -- $8.78m
B.A.R -- $7.80m
Renault --$6.18m
Jaguar/Red Bull --$3.95m
Jordon --$3.20m
Minardi --$380,000

Car Manufacturing Cost
Toyota --$3.40m
Ferrari --$3.20m
Mclaren --$2.70m
B.A.R --$2.40m
Williams --$2.25m
Sauber --$1.70m
Renault --$1.62m
Jaguar/Red Bull --$1.45m
Minardi --$750,000
Jordon --$640,000

Research And Development
Mclaren --$25.50m
Toyota --$25.10m
Williams --$22.60m
Ferrari --$22.40m
Renault --$18.70m
Sauber --$18.06m
B.A.R --$17.40m
Jaguar/Red Bull --$11.40m
Jordon --$7.50m
Minardi --$7.02m