A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
There is no value in comparing how far along Honda is with the Ferrari/Renault/Mercedes of 2014. Fact is they will have to compete with the Ferrari/Renault/Mercedes of 2015. Even if they could match the 2014 performances of the others they will still be a year behind.
Autosport plus article:
The final paragraph is interesting, 2 more steps from the engine to come before Australia.
Only three laps across two days and a jobs list barely touched - the revived McLaren-Honda alliance had a tough start in Abu Dhabi. BEN ANDERSON analyses whether things are really as bad as they seem
By Ben Anderson
Assistant F1 Editor
Troubled. Difficult. Disastrous. On the face of it, if you'd asked somebody to describe the first proper test of the new McLaren-Honda Formula 1 partnership in Abu Dhabi this week in one word, they'd probably use one of those three adjectives.
The MP4-29H, which broke cover at a Silverstone filming day earlier this month, was beset by electrical problems that severely limited its running during post-season F1 testing at the Yas Marina circuit on Tuesday and Wednesday.
The car did not leave the garage until there were less than three hours of testing left on day one, and reserve driver Stoffel Vandoorne completed just two full installation laps either side of breaking down on the circuit.
Further electrical problems with Honda's first V6 hybrid turbo engine confined the car to the garage for most of the second day too, as the team chased gremlins that were interfering with various elements of the electrical systems.
It completed one clean installation lap on Wednesday afternoon, before breaking down again when the car suffered what McLaren racing director Eric Boullier described as a "complete blackout". The car will now be sent back to McLaren's Woking base for a full investigation.
But maybe all is not as bad as it seems. Running the Honda-engined hack in the final test of 2014 was never certain to happen, which is probably why Boullier continually referred to the Abu Dhabi outing as a "bonus" for McLaren-Honda.
The Frenchman clearly sees the events of Yas Marina as a blessing in disguise - getting some of the woes that ruined the early part of the 2014 season for many teams out of the way now, rather than encountering them in two months' time in Spain.
"Obviously it has not gone [as well] as expected, or dreamed, but you need to remember a year ago - we didn't do one single lap the first day at Jerez," Boullier tells AUTOSPORT, thinking back to the opening test under F1's current engine regulations, when McLaren first ran its customer Mercedes V6.
"We have pushed this hybrid development car to run here, which for us is a bonus because everything we do now is not to be done next year. It's a head start.
"I'm not saying it's good - it's never good to not hit the track – but all the problems we went through are a learning process that isn't going to happen again. There is some positive in the negative.
"The other very important thing is bringing McLaren and Honda together. Running the operation on track is another headache to go through. We have a very heavy IT infrastructure because we have to connect Japan with England with the track, wherever we are in the world.
"When we turn up at Jerez next year we will have a very strong organisation, already ready for operations, and we will not need to go through the first list of problems because it's done already.
"Yes, it's not nice to not hit the track, but there is a lot of positive for us."
Honda too downplayed the effect of the problems, as its motorsport chief Yasuhisa Arai emphasised that rival manufacturers suffered similar difficulties when their engines first took to the track at the start of the year.
But there is no doubt such little running during last week's test has put the McLaren-Honda project behind schedule.
Boullier talked ahead of the test about doing 10 runs to check the systems (phase one), before moving on to longer running to push the engine and test its energy recovery abilities (phase two).
Five outings across both days, coupled with some basic maths, suggests phase one is certainly not completed... That's why Honda will now go back to work at its dyno and try to solve the problems encountered in the Middle East.
Boullier remains hopefully the uncompleted work from Abu Dhabi can be finished at the factory. If not, he hasn't ruled out using another filming day to make up for lost time before Jerez.
Mercedes has dominated the first season of competition for these hybrid engines, and rivals are concerned the German manufacturer will be even further ahead next year.
Surely McLaren will still have to endure the teething troubles and developmental difficulties suffered by other teams as they've embarked on a vain chase of the Silver Arrows?
Boullier thinks not. He reckons McLaren-Honda will catch up fast, because a works partnership means closer collaboration and faster, tailor-made improvements.
"We have works team status with Honda, which means the relationship is much more open than you may have as a customer," Boullier adds.
"This means you can find out what's wrong quicker, because you have more data.
"I'm pretty sure everybody has brought some experience from the pitlane. We have people who went though the pain with different engine manufacturers before. That helps.
"I believe the experience gained last winter will be very helpful. I'm not saying we're going to win the first race, but I'm pretty confident.
"Once we fix the issue here it means we can run. Installation issues, cooling – we have been on top of this already.
"On the list we have a lot of things ticked. The key is to make sure this ambitious ERS package is working. Then, if we can run from Jerez, our learning curve will be massive. Quicker than other teams."
Boullier's optimism is also partly rooted in the restructuring of McLaren's technical team that he has undertaken since arriving in Woking. The team developed the MP4-29 pretty well across the season, and Boullier believes the combination of an enhanced McLaren technical structure and Honda will surprise the sceptics.
"Don't underestimate the McLaren power as well," Boullier says. "It may not have delivered performance on track the last two years, but the power is still there. With what we have done, McLaren is back.
"This is why a lot of people – and some we cannot name here – have been seriously convinced about what we are doing. Even if there is some pain going through, they know this is the right place to be for the future."
This future didn't have the brightest start in Abu Dhabi this week, but if McLaren and Honda are worried, they are doing a very good job of looking relaxed about it.
HONDA MOTORSPORT CHIEF YASUHISA ARAI ON PROGRESS SO FAR
When Honda was last in F1 it performed poorly – what gives you confidence you will be competitive this time around?
"The last era was not so good for us in [terms of] results. We wanted to return to F1 and we learned a lot 'underground'.
"The current regulations are more suitable to our line of work. Honda has already developed a hybrid system and we have a lot of experience in this field.
"A downsized turbo with direct injection we learned in-house with a mass-production car. We have lots of great technology already."
Which element of the power unit is the biggest challenge to get right?
"On the hardware side, the MGU-H is a little bit complicated. High rpm. And [dealing with] the turbo heat..."
Do you expect a year of learning and improving, or do you think you can take on Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault straight away?
"I hope so. There's a little bit of an advantage to learn from the mass-production cars. We do a lot of hybrid systems. There are some very important points we already know. We can easily understand the root cause of problems."
Because you already know how the systems work?
"That's right. I hope that's an advantage. But in the meantime we don't have the track test data, we have no experience and we have no feedback from drivers. That's a big problem. We don't know about the actual racing, side-by-side, overtaking, the airflow... But we're very interested to learn."
How much influence has McLaren had on the engine?
"Honda makes the power unit system, including the energy recovery, but they [McLaren] have lots of experience on the circuit, so we are always discussing how to use it, and some ideas came from McLaren. Combined, it's a good relationship as one team. Very good."
How long will it take you to reach the top in F1?
"I hope that it will come next season. We want to win – always. We have a good expectation.
"Today's engines are of course not for the actual race. We are on schedule to develop that for the coming season and we expect two more steps. We want to qualify well on the grid in Australia."
The problem(electrical)was from the Mclaren side of the PU design.The wiring and a problem with the ground(it seams they couldn't keep a ground).No ground no run.
I simply don't get it, they are multi million euro operations and they can't bolt then engine and systems to a frame and drive
it around the car park or put the F1 car on a dyno until they have all the gremlins sorted out before they show up to a test
and embarrass themselves?
afaict there is no rules against running the car on a dyno with out wings, so whats the excuse for messing around with
wiring problems in public at a test with limit time?
Sasha wrote:The problem(electrical)was from the Mclaren side of the PU design.The wiring and a problem with the ground(it seams they couldn't keep a ground).No ground no run.
Nicktendo86 wrote:Do you have any source or is that your speculation?
Boullier was the source after all the haters blamed Honda.
He didn't specifically say it was a ground problem though, did he? All I have read was it was electrical and they didn't actually understand what caused it. Have you got a quote from him saying it was a ground issue?
Personally I suspected it was an issue with the McLaren side of things and would be backed up by those job postings they had.
Sasha wrote:The problem(electrical)was from the Mclaren side of the PU design.The wiring and a problem with the ground(it seams they couldn't keep a ground).No ground no run.
Why are you making that distinction?
All I can see is over 200 people couldn't fix it.
Electrical Problems are the worst to fix IMHO.. I rememeber I had my horn changed for my Skoda from the dealership (In India we use we the horn as much as the Brake/Accerlerator pedals... ). After getting it changed for some reason, all the electronics (including central locking, boot release and fuel cap release stopped working)... for no apparent reason. I had to bring the car back to service on a saturday.. Since it was the weekend, I decided to stay at the dealership and see what they were upto,.
They had to check the whole wiring harness (The ECU was showing multiple faults) to check what issue was.. Apparently, the fault was with wires shorting somewhere in the main harness because of the change (The new horn was more powerful and drew a little more power, the ECU thought it was abnormal and shut the electrical system).. It took a whole day to figure the fault out.
Now this was for a production car which was 5 years old.. Imaging what kind of trouble shooting McLaren Honda would have had go through with the complicated systems they currently have. It might be that the technician at the dealership were slow or didn't go about it in a proper way (Am not a technicians hence cannot comment on it) but still.. maybe with the right knowledge etc... it may have taken them half a day.
So, yea, I think I would chalk it down to teething problems which need to be sorted.
A lot of comment on why Honda is failing out of the box (having worked a fair bit in with Japanese manufacturers I bet you it is not the Honda side that is the issue...), but not much on whether having a year to study other designs from Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes has influenced their own choices.
I saw something about following the Mercedes split turbo design, any other clues? What might they have learned from Renault/Ferrari results that would influence design choices?
This signature is encrypted to avoid complaints, but it makes me laugh out loud:-
16S75 13E7K 41C53 7CT23 14O5O 67R32 76175 90B67 L4L42 41O63 72W56 98M10 52E87
langwadt wrote:I simply don't get it, they are multi million euro operations and they can't bolt then engine and systems to a frame and drive
it around the car park or put the F1 car on a dyno until they have all the gremlins sorted out before they show up to a test
and embarrass themselves?
afaict there is no rules against running the car on a dyno with out wings, so whats the excuse for messing around with
wiring problems in public at a test with limit time?
Probably because they are pushing design and development to the very last minute and so many parts will be brand new.
The Top Suspension Arms - above the mushrooms - are differently shaped - previuosly the width was the same, now it is much narrower where it is attached behind gearbox.
The silver "Attachment" on top of the Rear Crash Stucture - just below the Monkey Seat is a very different shape.
