Mercedes AMG F1 W06 Speculation

[prince]

Every year, it is the same story. Most people think, its not possible to find anymore speed and every year we get surprised that engineers have found areas of getting speed. That is why, we are audience and they are the show makers. Time and again, the engineers have surprised and shown something as possible, which most thought was possible anymore.

Every year it's the same story, people get an idea in their heads and insist on for page after page without stopping and looking at the facts

If the engines get more efficient, they'd use less revs, not more, because power is limited by the fuel flow cap at 10,500rpm .

I believe it'll be around what we have now, perhaps a few hundred rpm's less. It gets down to how quickly the driver shifts when he hits 10,500rpm. These engines go up in rpm very fast, and currently shifting happens around 11,500rpm. 1,000 rpm difference. Blink your eyes and they are already that much higher in rpm.

Although brief, currently they do hit over 13000 RPMs.

[turbof1]

Yes it depends on team to team. I don't remember which team hits which rpm at the moment of shifting.

There are of course advantages to going over 10,500 rpm. Going beyond means you'll still be picking up speed. The fuel input for each rpm however will go down, meaning acceleration goes down. It's basically a balancing act.

[mantikos]

Every year it's the same story, people get an idea in their heads and insist on for page after page without stopping and looking at the facts

If the engines get more efficient, they'd use less revs, not more, because power is limited by the fuel flow cap at 10,500rpm .

I believe it'll be around what we have now, perhaps a few hundred rpm's less. It gets down to how quickly the driver shifts when he hits 10,500rpm. These engines go up in rpm very fast, and currently shifting happens around 11,500rpm. 1,000 rpm difference. Blink your eyes and they are already that much higher in rpm.

Although brief, currently they do hit over 13000 RPMs.
http://s26.postimg.org/5t0qmemah/13515_rpm.png

Part of the news about the Bosch 500 bar system is more efficient combustion thus reducing fuel flow rate required for the same RPM - this would theoretically also allow them higher RPMs at max fuel flow rate

[PlatinumZealot]

I feel they have used the 500 bar system in 2013. You know why? There are papers from FIVE years ago suggesting Bosch has been testing ultra high pressure injectors. I'm not talking diesel injectors, which can be as high as 2000 bar, I mean Petrol injectors. Street cars have been using 200 bar petrol injectors for a few years now... So do not be surprised if they aren't using the 500 bar injectors now...

Anyways. These speculation threads are usually filled with mercurial thoughts... It is fun to read sometimes.

I have heard that other teams will be copying the mercur.. er.. I mean Y arm front lower suspension.

[noel]

so i'm not the idiot, then.

[Blanchimont]

Although brief, currently they do hit over 13000 RPMs.
http://s26.postimg.org/5t0qmemah/13515_rpm.png

This a bad example as the car is exiting a slow corner with more wheel slip than usual.
Listen to the sound at 0:30min: http://www.formula1.com/video/onboard/2014/italy/

The normal rev range above the traction limit,on a straight and off the kerbs is ~10500 to ~12200 for the Monza lap.

[Holm86]

Part of the news about the Bosch 500 bar system is more efficient combustion thus reducing fuel flow rate required for the same RPM - this would theoretically also allow them higher RPMs at max fuel flow rate

This is simply not correct, the max flow rate is given by a formula in the regulations at any given rpm. A more efficient combustion would only mean more power at that rpm. There is still no reason to increase the revs.
The only reason teams goes beyond 10.500 rpm is because no CVT's are allowed. Only 8 speed fixed ratio gearboxes, so drivers only exceed 10.500 rpm so that they won't fall to far below 10.500 rpm during shifts.

There is also the fact that you are able to extract more power from the MGU-H going above 10.500 rpm, because the flow through the engine from 10.500 to 15000 rpm is relativly constant. But the work needed by the turbo is less, so more energy can be extracted through the MGU-H. Thats the only reason I see in going beyond the 10.500 rpm mark.

And to the mods, this discussion belongs in the engine thread, not the W06 thread.

[prince]

Although brief, currently they do hit over 13000 RPMs.
http://s26.postimg.org/5t0qmemah/13515_rpm.png

This a bad example as the car is exiting a slow corner with more wheel slip than usual.
Listen to the sound at 0:30min: http://www.formula1.com/video/onboard/2014/italy/

The normal rev range above the traction limit,on a straight and off the kerbs is ~10500 to ~12200 for the Monza lap.

More wheel slip than usual? How do you quantify it? Everyone know that, there has always been a lot of wheel spin this year, due to so much torque coming out and teams are operating with that as an accepted parameter.

Anyway, there are many other instances where you can see those F1.com videos, not just Monza but also in other circuits where I saw the car above 13000 RPM. It is also common knowledge that the RPMs go high when you are on upper gears and looking for traction and ease out as the car gain momentum. I am not debating on the higher RPM after the car has got traction.

[Juzh]

teams are operating with that as an accepted parameter.

acceptable =/= optimal. He's at 13.5k because he's spinning the tires to rev limit. If he had no wheel spin he'd shift at his normal point at around 12.5k, as he usually does.

[PlatinumZealot]

Although brief, currently they do hit over 13000 RPMs.
http://s26.postimg.org/5t0qmemah/13515_rpm.png

This a bad example as the car is exiting a slow corner with more wheel slip than usual.
Listen to the sound at 0:30min: http://www.formula1.com/video/onboard/2014/italy/

The normal rev range above the traction limit,on a straight and off the kerbs is ~10500 to ~12200 for the Monza lap.

More wheel slip than usual? How do you quantify it? Everyone know that, there has always been a lot of wheel spin this year, due to so much torque coming out and teams are operating with that as an accepted parameter.

Anyway, there are many other instances where you can see those F1.com videos, not just Monza but also in other circuits where I saw the car above 13000 RPM. It is also common knowledge that the RPMs go high when you are on upper gears and looking for traction and ease out as the car gain momentum. I am not debating on the higher RPM after the car has got traction.

That is correct. The driver may use more revs if he needs for gear shifting purposes. For the engine though, even though your fuel flow rate is limited you can still run super lean to use the engine as an air pump to spin the turbo charger. Your horsepower to the wheels will not change buy your MGU-H harvest will increase. This is basically reducing engine power in exchange for charging the battery.

[Jolle]

Except for the nose, I think the biggest change will come from the shape/size of the side pods. Even just before the first test with the W05 they adapted the log style exhaust while the back of the car was designed for a tubular spaghetti one. I suspect a very tightly packaged car next year, with the rest just a evolution from the W05

[scarbs]

Oddly sidepods might get bigger. Team's will be pushing the PU harder and rejecting more heat

[kooleracer]

Oddly sidepods might get bigger. Team's will be pushing the PU harder and rejecting more heat

Is that a smart trade off isn't aero usually the dominating factor in F1 designs? Newey using smaller capacity KERS unit to gain aero performance for instance.

[PhillipM]

The only way for them to get more power is improved efficiency unless they're not already collecting all they can from the ers, so it should actually be less heat, no?

[Moose]

The only way for them to get more power is improved efficiency unless they're not already collecting all they can from the ers, so it should actually be less heat, no?

Not necessarily, collecting heat from ERS isn't the only place you lose efficiency. For example, incomplete combustion would be one place (where they're rumored to be getting a big power boost) where they would end up with more heat to get rid of.