max wants to bring back overtaking

[Ogami musashi]

I think moveable aerodynamics are not as simple as they seems.

First of all the transition phases are to be fast and linear, this is easy for an airbrake this is not for 3D rear wing (a wing with 3D aerodynamics).

Second if for one device the weight penalty is not big for a bunch of devices it is a serious concern.

However, there're some means aviable, morphing being the most realistic now as far as active elasticity/variable geometry are concerned.

Micro actuators can shape a wing in 3D in very efficient way and could even bring better aeros for a fixed profile by applying more infinetisimal 3D shaping.


Passive elasticity is also a great field of exploration and performance because in contrary to active one, passive elasticity can responds are near the same frequencies than air changes, however the danger will be to prevent the flutter problem (when the structure moves elasticaly at the same frequency than the air changes, wich negates the damping thus gaining more more and stress) but i think regulations will be shaped for that.

All in one this is a measure of even more efficient aerodynamics.

Max mosley will then surely see what he wants, less aerodynamics appendices and more flexible bodyworks...so fans would find the cars less ugly.

I think this is a good alternative for show and F1 status preservation and goes along well with the reduction in HP planned for 2011.

But for costs, i think it is just quite the opposite!

Safety will all depends on the areas authorized to be variable.

Road revelance well hum....i doubt our cars will see morphing wings that early!

Even the passive flex of the Mclaren front wing's upper flap is not near introduction is something similar in production autos.

[Militia Est Vita]

Very interesting analysis Ogami! I agree that costs savings are going to be hard to achieve since teams will have to spend quite big amounts of cash in developing all this new technology! Thanks a lot for your feedback in my questions.

[miqi23]

I think moveable aerodynamics are not as simple as they seems.

First of all the transition phases are to be fast and linear, this is easy for an airbrake this is not for 3D rear wing (a wing with 3D aerodynamics).

Second if for one device the weight penalty is not big for a bunch of devices it is a serious concern.

However, there're some means aviable, morphing being the most realistic now as far as active elasticity/variable geometry are concerned.

Micro actuators can shape a wing in 3D in very efficient way and could even bring better aeros for a fixed profile by applying more infinetisimal 3D shaping.


Passive elasticity is also a great field of exploration and performance because in contrary to active one, passive elasticity can responds are near the same frequencies than air changes, however the danger will be to prevent the flutter problem (when the structure moves elasticaly at the same frequency than the air changes, wich negates the damping thus gaining more more and stress) but i think regulations will be shaped for that.

All in one this is a measure of even more efficient aerodynamics.

Max mosley will then surely see what he wants, less aerodynamics appendices and more flexible bodyworks...so fans would find the cars less ugly.

I think this is a good alternative for show and F1 status preservation and goes along well with the reduction in HP planned for 2011.

But for costs, i think it is just quite the opposite!

Safety will all depends on the areas authorized to be variable.

Road revelance well hum....i doubt our cars will see morphing wings that early!

Even the passive flex of the Mclaren front wing's upper flap is not near introduction is something similar in production autos.

Well, I never said anything about morphing wings and all that. They will cost loads to develop and who knows what the final outcome would be.

With regards to flaps, its simple. I am not sure how you are trying to vision this but I am relying on the high pressure produced on its surface and the diverted air interacting with the rear wing to produce more downforce or to atleast making up for whats lost.

Obviously the exact location of that flap can be decided based on some calculation and some wind tunnel testing. As far as the weight of that mechanisim is concerned, the flap itself would blend on to a normal surface, it is just that it would move up and down based on an optimum angle etc.. and the device used to operate it would be a simple support. This would hardly cost anything and the best thing to see is if it really works!

Any thoughts?

[Ray]

With the way that Max is coming up with brain dead ideas, maybe I won't be far off base with MY thickheadedness that he will waste resources on lighting the night races. He's already systematically trying to destroy the top series of motorsports by attempting to make it a spec series. That guy is killing the sport by basically thinking. His brain should be removed.

On topic though, when the hell are they going to bring back slicks?!? NO racecar should have anything other than slicks. Even if they don't increase passing, it's still a fundemental part of a racecar.

[Militia Est Vita]

I think they were planing the return of slicks at the same time with the new double-rear wing for was it 2008?. I haven't heard about anything moving towards this direction since and we are already in mid 2007. Has anyone heard what happened with this cool ideas?

http://www.formula1.com/news/3764.html

many thanx

[miqi23]

I think they were planing the return of slicks at the same time with the new double-rear wing for was it 2008?. I haven't heard about anything moving towards this direction since and we are already in mid 2007. Has anyone heard what happened with this cool ideas?

http://www.formula1.com/news/3764.html

many thanx

Mate, it is all over the place to be honest! No one seems to know whats happening. Half the people are against the concept and half of them support it. Some say it works and some say it dont. It sounds like they might come up with some thing standard making F1 a spec series

The concept was delayed since more work was needed to make it work... One things for sure, its bloody ugly lol.

[Ogami musashi]

Well, I never said anything about morphing wings and all that. They will cost loads to develop and who knows what the final outcome would be.

I talked about morphing because if you talk about active (moveable) devices, morphing systems are the best coming technologies, they have the streamlined attachements and low weight.

It is unlikely F1 will every go for a "simple" solution.

With regards to flaps, its simple. I am not sure how you are trying to vision this but I am relying on the high pressure produced on its surface and the diverted air interacting with the rear wing to produce more downforce or to atleast making up for whats lost.


Obviously the exact location of that flap can be decided based on some calculation and some wind tunnel testing. As far as the weight of that mechanisim is concerned, the flap itself would blend on to a normal surface, it is just that it would move up and down based on an optimum angle etc.. and the device used to operate it would be a simple support. This would hardly cost anything and the best thing to see is if it really works!

Any thoughts?

The problem is that the loss of downforce that occurs is not lost by simply having less velocity all around but by having velocities disperencies everywhere with high turbulent vortices, so to make for the downforce lost just increase the angle of attack of a flaps is not sufficient.
Mainly it will require height and profile variation to offset it.

In addition, in order not to result with less downforce/drag ratio (wich would mean more drag so sliptreaming effect would be negated=less overtaking possibilities) you have to be sure you don't rely on high Cl(downforce coef).

As far as weight is concerned, you have a moveable device, it requires actuators, actuators weight. As i said if it's only one device okay, if actuators are everywhere that would cost a lot.

Some skirt heigh adjustement devices in the past had weight penalties.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Whatever Max wants there's one thing that's certain:

He will NOT go the right way about getting it. The CDG wing if implemented will produce more bad than good. Believe me. lol.

[modbaraban]

Whatever Max wants there's one thing that's certain.....

OMG man fix your avatar!

---------

hoooohh...

there was a pic saying something like: the image is no longer available... and that pic was HUGE

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Huh? Did I miss something?

EDIT: That said I was actually thinking 5mins ago of changing my avatar to something else

[tomislavp4]

Offcourse movable aerodynamics will be road relevant technologies, now when ferrari is making reasearch for use in their road cars, the others will follow thrust me
http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-conten ... VATION.pdf

[Ogami musashi]

This one is a concept, for one study on a supercar, if you think like this then low latency gear shifters are road revelant because they're used on ferrari super cars for years now, but you can't say this is road revelant for all cars.


Overall i think the term "Moveable Aerodynamics" is too general, i'm not quite sure the teams in F1 will employ the same means just like in sports car now you don't multiple flaps, endplates, 3D camber wings.


What i mean is that i don't think it will be more road revelant than other technologies we have now.

Yet it will benefit road cars still, one day or another that's for sure, but is it a trend, not quite sure about it.

[Hudsonhawk.]

max will look to road rules for inspiration.

all tracks wil now have signs posted, "keep right unless overtaking".....

[Spencifer_Murphy]

F1 Racing mag suggests this month that Moveable Aerodynamics maybe once again be allowed. Obviously a total ban wont be lifted as the teams will just get crazy. But having limitations which allow flexi wings, or Movable wings etc might be re-introduced.

[Ogami musashi]

I just read the 2011 chassis PDF.

All in one i think that's a good way, more Ground effects, active (hehe, we talked about morphing wings and what do you find into the PDF? morphing wings...and even plasma) wings and reduction in drag.


According to the pdf FIA plans to bring the golden compromise that is both the slipstream in low drag and dowforce retainement, that's quite a challenge and if succeed would be unique.

Reduction in downforce is not clear though, appart that it would be increased at slow speed, and 50% of 2007 levels "but not so much in corners" (??)..


The "lap times marginaly faster than 2009-2010" is not clear also.

One sentance hit me: the minimal weight should vanish.

Let me put it: weight reduction+downforce reduction(only in straights)= massive corner speeds!

I'm going to read the power train but i'm already happy the RPM limit just flew away well those propositions are interesting i think...