The Mother of All F1 Brake Threads

[trinidefender]

langwadt, you put energy into the discs by increasing their speed, so there is more energy in this system. There's certainly a loss, but the gain could outweigh it.

CBeck113 you are ignoring the fact that current brakes have easily enough force to lock up the tyres. Look at it this way, to stop a car at a certain deceleration rate takes a certain amount of energy spread out over a certain amount of time.

Currently the deceleration rate is limited by tyre grip not braking. If you double the speed of the of the brake disks and apply the same calliper force to them then yes, probably around double the heat will be generated. That is right up until the point the tyre locks up which will pretty much be immediately.

With double the brake disk speed to maintain the same deceleration rate you would have to apply something like half the calliper force. I'm not sure how the friction coefficients rise on brake disks so can't account for that. Either way the heat generated by the brake disk, for a particular deceleration rate, will be the same regardless if you have the normal X calliper force and Y disk speed compared to 0.5 X and 2 Y disk speed. Understand now?

[langwadt]

langwadt, you put energy into the discs by increasing their speed, so there is more energy in this system. There's certainly a loss, but the gain could outweigh it.

CBeck113 you are ignoring the fact that current brakes have easily enough force to lock up the tyres. Look at it this way, to stop a car at a certain deceleration rate takes a certain amount of energy spread out over a certain amount of time.

Currently the deceleration rate is limited by tyre grip not braking. If you double the speed of the of the brake disks and apply the same calliper force to them then yes, probably around double the heat will be generated. That is right up until the point the tyre locks up which will pretty much be immediately.

With double the brake disk speed to maintain the same deceleration rate you would have to apply something like half the calliper force. I'm not sure how the friction coefficients rise on brake disks so can't account for that. Either way the heat generated by the brake disk, for a particular deceleration rate, will be the same regardless if you have the normal X calliper force and Y disk speed compared to 0.5 X and 2 Y disk speed. Understand now?

yes, it is the same as the never ending discussion about power vs. torque

The tires can only transfer as certain torque, with gears you can decrease the torque needed from the brakes/engine to make the torque running the brakes/engine faster via a gearbox, but it doesn't change the amount of power

[CBeck113]

On last time:

You remove energy from the drivetrain and transferring it to the brake calipers.
Use this additional energy to heat the tires more quickly, would come in handy when, for instance, the tire warmers are banned (as previously planned).

trinidefender, I most certainly ignored the current brakes, because they would not work with this proposed function. I put out a theoretical reason for this idea, which apparently was potent enough to be banned before seeing the light of day. If I need to design a brake system to meet the requirements of my theory then I'll drop the discussion.

[trinidefender]

On last time:

You remove energy from the drivetrain and transferring it to the brake calipers.
Use this additional energy to heat the tires more quickly, would come in handy when, for instance, the tire warmers are banned (as previously planned).

trinidefender, I most certainly ignored the current brakes, because they would not work with this proposed function. I put out a theoretical reason for this idea, which apparently was potent enough to be banned before seeing the light of day. If I need to design a brake system to meet the requirements of my theory then I'll drop the discussion.

You aren't getting any additional energy to the tyres regardless of what type of braking system is used. That is my point. Either way the cars deceleration will remain about the same, the point at which just before the tyres lock up. Therefore the heat generated by the brakes to maintain this deceleration will be the same.

Or do you for some reason believe that this won't happen?

[Luke]

On last time:

You remove energy from the drivetrain and transferring it to the brake calipers.
Use this additional energy to heat the tires more quickly, would come in handy when, for instance, the tire warmers are banned (as previously planned).

trinidefender, I most certainly ignored the current brakes, because they would not work with this proposed function. I put out a theoretical reason for this idea, which apparently was potent enough to be banned before seeing the light of day. If I need to design a brake system to meet the requirements of my theory then I'll drop the discussion.

You aren't getting any additional energy to the tyres regardless of what type of braking system is used. That is my point. Either way the cars deceleration will remain about the same, the point at which just before the tyres lock up. Therefore the heat generated by the brakes to maintain this deceleration will be the same.

Or do you for some reason believe that this won't happen?

If the brake rotor can be turned by an electric motor even when the car is stationary, you could generate more heat into the rim/tyres than you would if the brake runs always at wheel rotational speed. ie you could choose to apportion some of your MGU-H and MGU-K into turning the brake disc to keep the tyre temp in the desired window.

[Scalexf1]

I'm not a forum poster, this is my first foray so be gentle! Hahaha. But this subject is pretty interesting.
Excusing my lack of full regulatory understanding, is it conseivable we are looking at one of the teams sucessfully harnessing rear brake steer?
I must admit I have been pretty amazed at the front grip afforded to the 2 Mercedes cars through this year.
If the rear brakes are not connected to the wheel speed, then rear brake steer can be utilised.
How this would be attained or executed I have no idea.
Any ideas?

[langwadt]

I'm not a forum poster, this is my first foray so be gentle! Hahaha. But this subject is pretty interesting.
Excusing my lack of full regulatory understanding, is it conseivable we are looking at one of the teams sucessfully harnessing rear brake steer?
I must admit I have been pretty amazed at the front grip afforded to the 2 Mercedes cars through this year.
If the rear brakes are not connected to the wheel speed, then rear brake steer can be utilised.
How this would be attained or executed I have no idea.
Any ideas?

Mclaren had a and extra brake pedal working on one of the rear wheels in 1997, it was banned as a form of four wheel steering

[Vary]

A disk that declutches when you lock the brakes?