2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[wuzak]

Example: raikkonen was doing 324 over the start/finish line in monza 2005 with half a race worth of fuel, so pretty much similar weight to 2014 quali car. Compared to DRSed bottas at 317 in 2014.
S1 speed trap 342 kmh in 2005, 330 in 2014 without DRS. There's just no contest.
900bhp is BS imo.

In 2005 there was refuelling, so qualifying was not with half race fuel. So, even allowing for fuel the cars wer much lighter.

Also they ad more downforce, even in low downforce trim. In low downforce trim they would probably have similar drag to a current car with DRS on.

And they had much better tyre grip.

All factors in reduced acceleration.

[gruntguru]

900hp ---> 740hp witout KERS ---> if fuel heat content is 43,2MJ/kg then efficiency = 45% !?

you forget the MGU-H!

so it is ICE + MGUH = 760hp.

ICE = "Internal Combustion Engine" = piston engine + MGUH

[Juzh]

Example: raikkonen was doing 324 over the start/finish line in monza 2005 with half a race worth of fuel, so pretty much similar weight to 2014 quali car. Compared to DRSed bottas at 317 in 2014.
S1 speed trap 342 kmh in 2005, 330 in 2014 without DRS. There's just no contest.
900bhp is BS imo.

In 2005 there was refuelling, so qualifying was not with half race fuel. So, even allowing for fuel the cars wer much lighter.

Also they ad more downforce, even in low downforce trim. In low downforce trim they would probably have similar drag to a current car with DRS on.

And they had much better tyre grip.

All factors in reduced acceleration.

I know there was refuelling. Raikkonen however did more than half the race on single tank because he had an engine penalty.
You're even saying they had about the same drag, so how could they possibly be 10+ clicks down on 2005 into della rogia S1 speed trap with the same power and same weight and same drag? Also 2005 tires were hard as anything to be able to do whole race.
Something doesn't add up.

[Juzh]

900hp ---> 740hp witout KERS ---> if fuel heat content is 43,2MJ/kg then efficiency = 45% !?

you forget the MGU-H!

so it is ICE + MGUH = 760hp.

Mgu-h goes trough mgu-k. Your point?

[PlatinumZealot]

900hp ---> 740hp witout KERS ---> if fuel heat content is 43,2MJ/kg then efficiency = 45% !?

you forget the MGU-H!

so it is ICE + MGUH = 760hp.

Mgu-h goes trough mgu-k. Your point?

Battery power to mguk is regulated at 160 hp max. Mguh to mguk is not regulated. So there is no limit on the power you can transfer from turbo to the crankshaft via the mguk. It is pretty much turbo compunding except an electrical drivetrain replacing the mechanical drivetrain.

So if the 900 hp is the power to the flywheel we can assum that it is equal to battery kers + mguh kers + piston engine.

900hp = 160hp + (~140hp + ~600hp). Give or take.

This proposal make the most sense to me. Ferrari were weak on the mguh. So they had to sacrifice power over a lap to charge their battery. And during. Qualifying when they needed maximum power they could not charge their battery enough for a consequtive flying lap.

[Moose]

Why are we back to "if fuel has this energy density then the engine would be 45% efficient, I don't believe that"

1) as covered earlier in the thread, your assumption about the energy density of fuel is right at the very low end of any documentation of the actual energy density of fuel. It's entirely possible that the energy density is higher.
2) "I don't believe it" is not an actual technical contribution to the discussion. Give some hard reasoning why the current engines do not achieve that. Note, speculation about "people would hail it as a breakthrough" is not hard reasoning.

[Tommy Cookers]

Thanks for that link G-G, those graphs showing the inter-relationship..
.. of fuel-type/boost/static comp'/ign' advance/inlet air temp' & BSFC.. are still revealing..
Like-wise the cessation of TEL in GP motorcycling fuel cruelled outputs..
..but that included loss of friction control ( micro-welding) as well as fuel burn/ignition advance issues....

the high Toluene blend (of equal 102 RON but actually lower MON) is shown to have high detonation resistance when 15% rich
in those days only RON was counted, not MON or mean of (RON+MON)
Aromatics eg Toluene do not perform well detonationwise with charge temperature, but do very well with mixture strength
the reasons why MON reduces with Toluene (as MON's charge temperature is much higher than RON's)
and why eg so-called 100LL Avgas gets to behave at 100/130 PN

also eg a 30% rich mixture of leaded fuel carries eg 30% more lead than the same fuel at stoichiometric mixture

yes, the need for heating of the high Toluene blend is (as Honda says) the high BP (not the viscosity)
cruise missile fuels have higher energy/litre than Toluene - perhaps such (gelled) ingredients have caused the high-viscosity stories ?

[ringo]

The reason i don't really buy the 900hp, is not just the math behind it, but also how fast the cars look when they have no ERS.
There is no way a 740hp car is going to look as slow as rosberg in abu dhabi, or at other times when redbull lose their ERS.
I still think the cars are at a measly 620hp without MGUH and KERS.
They look to darn slow without the electric power.

Back in 2013 we had 740+ 80hp, 820hp combined?

[Skippon]

Rosberg was that slow in Abu Dhabi as he also lost the MGU-H and therefore the turbo too!

[pgfpro]

I think on these new cars when something fails in one of the PU the car drops into a major limp mode. Today's F1 cars are way to complex when one part of the systems fails or acts up so they probably pull all kinds of power out of it to survive the rest of the race.

[J.A.W.]

Current cars run myriad complex systems.. ..& mill must be over-built for longevity - this means more weight..
..& weight in racing, combined with lower track adhesion - due to reduced down-force/tyre traction, = slower..

[langwadt]

you forget the MGU-H!

so it is ICE + MGUH = 760hp.

Mgu-h goes trough mgu-k. Your point?

Battery power to mguk is regulated at 160 hp max. Mguh to mguk is not regulated. So there is no limit on the power you can transfer from turbo to the crankshaft via the mguk. It is pretty much turbo compunding except an electrical drivetrain replacing the mechanical drivetrain.
.snip.

As I read the rules the mguk has a power limit of 120kW regardless of where the energy comes from

[Pierce89]

Battery power to mguk is regulated at 160 hp max. Mguh to mguk is not regulated. So there is no limit on the power you can transfer from turbo to the crankshaft via the mguk. It is pretty much turbo compunding except an electrical drivetrain replacing the mechanical drivetrain.

So if the 900 hp is the power to the flywheel we can assum that it is equal to battery kers + mguh kers + piston engine.

900hp = 160hp + (~140hp + ~600hp). Give or take.

This proposal make the most sense to me. Ferrari were weak on the mguh. So they had to sacrifice power over a lap to charge their battery. And during. Qualifying when they needed maximum power they could not charge their battery enough for a consequtive flying lap.

The mgu-k is limited to 160 hp. That's all it can give regardless of the source of energy (battery or mgu-h). Meaning that if the mgu-h is providing more than 160 hp, then the extra would have to go to the battery. You are correct though, in the mgu-h not being limited. So in summary, the mgu-h can produce as much energy as you want,but it can only returned to the drivetrain at a rate of 120kw.

[wuzak]

Battery power to mguk is regulated at 160 hp max. Mguh to mguk is not regulated. So there is no limit on the power you can transfer from turbo to the crankshaft via the mguk. It is pretty much turbo compunding except an electrical drivetrain replacing the mechanical drivetrain.

So if the 900 hp is the power to the flywheel we can assum that it is equal to battery kers + mguh kers + piston engine.

900hp = 160hp + (~140hp + ~600hp). Give or take.

This proposal make the most sense to me. Ferrari were weak on the mguh. So they had to sacrifice power over a lap to charge their battery. And during. Qualifying when they needed maximum power they could not charge their battery enough for a consequtive flying lap.

The transfer of power between the ES and MGUK is limited by the amount of energy transferred - ie 2MJ from MGUK to ES and 4MJ from ES to MGUK.

The MGUK itself is restricted to 120kW/160hp.

Energy transfers between the MGUH and ES and MGUH and MGUK are unlimited.

Ferrari's issue, at least at the start of 2014, was that they had no facility for directly using the MGUH to power the MGUK. MGUH power had to be stored in teh ES before being used bythe MGUK. This restricts how much power can be used over a lap.

[trinidefender]

Battery power to mguk is regulated at 160 hp max. Mguh to mguk is not regulated. So there is no limit on the power you can transfer from turbo to the crankshaft via the mguk. It is pretty much turbo compunding except an electrical drivetrain replacing the mechanical drivetrain.

So if the 900 hp is the power to the flywheel we can assum that it is equal to battery kers + mguh kers + piston engine.

900hp = 160hp + (~140hp + ~600hp). Give or take.

This proposal make the most sense to me. Ferrari were weak on the mguh. So they had to sacrifice power over a lap to charge their battery. And during. Qualifying when they needed maximum power they could not charge their battery enough for a consequtive flying lap.

The transfer of power between the ES and MGUK is limited by the amount of energy transferred - ie 2MJ from MGUK to ES and 4MJ from ES to MGUK.

The MGUK itself is restricted to 120kW/160hp.

Energy transfers between the MGUH and ES and MGUH and MGUK are unlimited.

Ferrari's issue, at least at the start of 2014, was that they had no facility for directly using the MGUH to power the MGUK. MGUH power had to be stored in teh ES before being used bythe MGUK. This restricts how much power can be used over a lap.

Source? To me sending power directly from the MGU-H directly to the MGU-K always seemed obvious. There is no way the engineers would have missed that. Not to mention to add that in would only take software coding and a few extra power wires