2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[bergie88]

But how you drive MGUH with wastegate fully open? Or I`m misunderstanding.?

I mean, for full power (100% Throttle), you close wastegate (depending of MGUH capacity...), drive MGUH in generator mode and generate power for MGUK?
Or You are referenced to begining of transient conditions (early start for power demand)?

you are misunderstanding the full power mode.
wastegate is fully open, allowing all the exhaust gas to bypass the turbine
the compressor is powered by the MGU-H in motor mode, using energy stored in the batteries
MGU-K is in motor mode too, using energy stored in the batteries

this will use up any stored energy pretty quickly, but for short periods it can give you a pretty good boost in power

I still dont understand this principle. I have a background in automotive technology but my knowledge about turbocharged engines is limited. I understand that you have a sort of backpressure from the turbine back to the engine, which causes some loss in power, am I right? Once you bypass all the exhaust gasses you dont have this effect, and when combined with the MGU-H powering the compressor you have an increase in power. But is this increase in power larger compared with the power you can generate with the MGU-H and deliver directly to the MGU-K?

P.S. I think the advantage of Mercedes is mostly related to this kind of control topics.

[Facts Only]

I'd suggest that the twin inlets straddle the outlet and then go to a inlet area similar to the Renault's.

This area acts like an airbox. Though I would have thought that advantage may have been gained by feeding one side of the air inlet to create some pre-swirl before entering the compressor.

This is just what I thought after I finished my last post so I have done a quick revision:



I'm still sure that the MGUH is a the front as its the only reason you would go to the trouble of all this top inlet and outlet and it does package really nicely.



I suspect that the twin inlets feed the compressor wheel a bit like the two feeds to the turbine housing with a sort of spiral effect to induce pre-swirl as you mentioned.

You cant just feed one side as this will create unequal pressure in the wheel and start the compressor wheel "nodding" which with such tight clearances will cause the wheel and housing to touch. A big chunk of compressor wheel efficiency can be gained by decreasing the clearance to the housing.

[Facts Only]

Also, on your diagram the inlet and outlet seem to be in the same plane.

The inlet, if it is between the compressor and turbine, will be behind the volute and outlet.

The solution would be similar if the inlet was between MGUH and compressor - in both cases the inlet area will have a shaft running through it.

Its a rough model.

[wuzak]

But how you drive MGUH with wastegate fully open? Or I`m misunderstanding.?

I mean, for full power (100% Throttle), you close wastegate (depending of MGUH capacity...), drive MGUH in generator mode and generate power for MGUK?
Or You are referenced to begining of transient conditions (early start for power demand)?

you are misunderstanding the full power mode.
wastegate is fully open, allowing all the exhaust gas to bypass the turbine
the compressor is powered by the MGU-H in motor mode, using energy stored in the batteries
MGU-K is in motor mode too, using energy stored in the batteries

this will use up any stored energy pretty quickly, but for short periods it can give you a pretty good boost in power

I still dont understand this principle. I have a background in automotive technology but my knowledge about turbocharged engines is limited. I understand that you have a sort of backpressure from the turbine back to the engine, which causes some loss in power, am I right? Once you bypass all the exhaust gasses you dont have this effect, and when combined with the MGU-H powering the compressor you have an increase in power. But is this increase in power larger compared with the power you can generate with the MGU-H and deliver directly to the MGU-K?

P.S. I think the advantage of Mercedes is mostly related to this kind of control topics.

The MGUK can only deliver 120kW (160hp) no matter where the energy comes from.

So if the MGUH delivers 60kW (80hp) at full throttle on the straight the ES also has to supply 60Kw (80hp).

By relieving the ICE of the back pressure there is more power at the crankshaft. Add to that 120kW from the MGUK being driven by the ES and you get maximum power.

The turbo has to be driven by the MGUH in this mode, so while the power is better the battery diesn't last as long.

The Ferrari uses two wastegates. I wonder if they would be able to use one to reduce back pressure on one bank and get more hp (not as much as with both open, of course)and still have enough exhaust energy to drive the turbo, and maybe even still get some MGIH generation.

They would alternate sides to keep even wear.

[wuzak]

I suspect that the twin inlets feed the compressor wheel a bit like the two feeds to the turbine housing with a sort of spiral effect to induce pre-swirl as you mentioned.

To do that, one side of teh feed has to do a U-turn.

You cant just feed one side as this will create unequal pressure in the wheel and start the compressor wheel "nodding" which with such tight clearances will cause the wheel and housing to touch. A big chunk of compressor wheel efficiency can be gained by decreasing the clearance to the housing.

Its not like the air will be directly impinging on one side of the compressor inlet. It would swirl in the direction of rotation and could be fed in the whole way around the inlet.

I suspect that the twin inlet thingy just leads to an airbox in front of teh compressor inlet.

[Facts Only]

I suspect that the twin inlets feed the compressor wheel a bit like the two feeds to the turbine housing with a sort of spiral effect to induce pre-swirl as you mentioned.

To do that, one side of teh feed has to do a U-turn.

You cant just feed one side as this will create unequal pressure in the wheel and start the compressor wheel "nodding" which with such tight clearances will cause the wheel and housing to touch. A big chunk of compressor wheel efficiency can be gained by decreasing the clearance to the housing.

Its not like the air will be directly impinging on one side of the compressor inlet. It would swirl in the direction of rotation and could be fed in the whole way around the inlet.

I suspect that the twin inlet thingy just leads to an airbox in front of teh compressor inlet.

It wouldn't have to do a U turn, both would have to d a 90°, with one entering above and one entering below, a bit like the Turbine housing.

The compressor wheels are very sensitive to uneven pressure and can start nodding very easily, I believe that's why its twin entry.

[Facts Only]

The Ferrari uses two wastegates. I wonder if they would be able to use one to reduce back pressure on one bank and get more hp (not as much as with both open, of course)and still have enough exhaust energy to drive the turbo, and maybe even still get some MGIH generation.

They would alternate sides to keep even wear.

The Ferrari uses one wastgate, two feeds into a single oval butterfly. There is a picture on page 494 as there are a number of them listed for sale in the Marussia auction.

[wuzak]

The Ferrari uses two wastegates. I wonder if they would be able to use one to reduce back pressure on one bank and get more hp (not as much as with both open, of course)and still have enough exhaust energy to drive the turbo, and maybe even still get some MGIH generation.

They would alternate sides to keep even wear.

The Ferrari uses one wastgate, two feeds into a single oval butterfly. There is a picture on page 494 as there are a number of them listed for sale in the Marussia auction.

ok, thanks

[Vortex37]

Spotted this in the Marussia auction listing earlier:

http://cagp.auctionhq.net/images/lot/1076/107647_0.jpg

Is that really a Ferrari designed part?

[ian_s]

Spotted this in the Marussia auction listing earlier:

http://cagp.auctionhq.net/images/lot/1076/107647_0.jpg

Is that really a Ferrari designed part?

just below the picture in the original post it said that Ferrari left the teams to design their own wastegates, meaning this was a marussia design

[Vortex37]

Spotted this in the Marussia auction listing earlier:

http://cagp.auctionhq.net/images/lot/1076/107647_0.jpg

Is that really a Ferrari designed part?

just below the picture in the original post it said that Ferrari left the teams to design their own wastegates, meaning this was a marussia design

Ferrari seem to specify a wastegate but the teams supply it and Renault let the teams work it out for themselves

"Seem to specify" indicates a Ferrari design.

[Facts Only]

Is that really a Ferrari designed part?

just below the picture in the original post it said that Ferrari left the teams to design their own wastegates, meaning this was a marussia design

Ferrari seem to specify a wastegate but the teams supply it and Renault let the teams work it out for themselves

"Seem to specify" indicates a Ferrari design.

It's common for the engine manufacturers to give requirements and specifications for certain parts (like the waste gate) and then let the teams design the specifics and have them made. The Ferrari wastegates all look very similar so maybe they supplied a complete design to Marussia and Sauber and just got them to make it themselves.
It could be the case that as the teams design and make their own tailpipe (again to some outline specifications from Ferrari) that Ferrari have supplied them the design for the main workings of the wastegates but left them to design there own tailpipe mating.

[trinidefender]

I'd suggest that the twin inlets straddle the outlet and then go to a inlet area similar to the Renault's.

This area acts like an airbox. Though I would have thought that advantage may have been gained by feeding one side of the air inlet to create some pre-swirl before entering the compressor.

This is just what I thought after I finished my last post so I have done a quick revision:

http://i.imgur.com/wAWrgJA.jpg

I'm still sure that the MGUH is a the front as its the only reason you would go to the trouble of all this top inlet and outlet and it does package really nicely.

http://i.imgur.com/jUO77iK.jpg

I suspect that the twin inlets feed the compressor wheel a bit like the two feeds to the turbine housing with a sort of spiral effect to induce pre-swirl as you mentioned.

You cant just feed one side as this will create unequal pressure in the wheel and start the compressor wheel "nodding" which with such tight clearances will cause the wheel and housing to touch. A big chunk of compressor wheel efficiency can be gained by decreasing the clearance to the housing.

Actually with axial and centrifugal compressors you want as little twist to the airflow before it reaches the compressor. Having the airflow twist as it enters the compressor seriously degrades its efficiency.

[PlatinumZealot]

Here are some quotes on horsepower and other engine specs of the 2014 mercedes engine

It say 820hp. It is only an article, I know.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 63888.html

so if all KERS + ICE is 820hp... we are looking at 660hp from the ICE.

[Moose]

Here are some quotes on horsepower and other engine specs of the 2014 mercedes engine

It say 820hp. It is only an article, I know.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 63888.html

so if all KERS + ICE is 820hp... we are looking at 660hp from the ICE.

That makes a lot of sense, and aligns with people asserting that the engines this year will approach 900hp, if Merc really have gained the rumored 60hp.