2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
J.A.W.
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Quite evidently the current tightly written F1 engine rules are constraining development into a particular pathway..

Yet the emphatic ban on 2Ts is - surely - a means of preventing any 2T-based approach, lest it prove superior..

If as B mooted, the rules allowed for a true technological appraisal of the all the inherent power density/pressure ratio
factors based on a best performance use of a finite fuel flow - to produce a race speed result, 2T must beat 4T..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

uniflow
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Isn't interesting that the Crecy was concived as a high power, high fuel consuption short range combat engine and yet when tested turned out to be very economical on fuel, better than the fourstrokes of the day.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Albeit U, it is my understanding that the best BSFC obtained by the Crecy was in a narrow rpm/powerband..
..due to the fixed dimension porting-ducting flow parameters.. ..a matter that could be addressed by adaptive ducts..

Not that this would really matter for a compound mill running at peak efficiency for electromotive use..

I did recently see an academic paper which reviewed recent attempts to convert poppet valve 4T mills to 2T operation,
- on the basis of 2T theoretical thermodynamic advantage, but they all fell down on the poor flow/mech' limit capacity..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

gruntguru
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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An Aussie company Rotec, developed a process for converting 4T diesels to 2T with moderate success. The motivation was increased airflow at the same power output resulting in useful emissions reductions. This to retrofit trucks in the US to meet later smog regs.
je suis charlie

J.A.W.
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Thanks G-G & yeah, Rotec were mentioned in the CI section ( CI was seen as less problematic due to lower rpm range)..
Cams/poppet gear running at 1:1 engine speed - is an issue for higher rpm mills, as Toyota found out..

& for that general reduction in diesel emissions - see current Renault 'Powerful' 2T CI development - cited on P.23..

Diesel fuel has problematic molecular chemical carbon-chain bond issues - to deal with - in a combustion context..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

manolis
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Gruntguru.

You write:
“An Aussie company Rotec, developed a process for converting 4T diesels to 2T with moderate success. The motivation was increased airflow at the same power output resulting in useful emissions reductions. This to retrofit trucks in the US to meet later smog regs.”

A Rotec-modified 2-stroke Diesel has true-four-stroke lubrication and true-four-stroke scuffing resistance.
But it has also half valve-time-area as compared to the original 4-stroke Diesel, giving about the same peak power (at lower revs).


Quote from http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatPortLess.htm for the PatPortLess engine:

It is a port-less through-scavenged two-stroke engine.

Image

With the cylinder-liner rid of intake and exhaust ports, this engine combines:
true "four-stroke" lubrication,
true "four-stroke" specific lube consumption,
true "four-stroke" scuffing resistance,
uniflow scavenging efficiency,
double valve-area and
some 30% longer piston dwell at the CTDC (Combustion Top Dead Center).


Valve-time-area:

A similar four-stroke engine has nearly the same valve-time-area with the PatPortLess (the time halves, but the valve-area doubles) resulting in a similar energy per explosion at the same revs; for every power explosion of the four-stroke they happen two power explosions of the PatPortLess, giving nearly double power.
In comparison to the conventional port-less two-stroke engines (transfer and exhaust poppet-valves on the cylinder head, loop-scavenged) the valve-area of the PatPortLess is double, resulting in double valve-time-area at the same revs (i.e. double power density)


Lubrication:

The piston and the piston rings are lubricated by the crankcase lubricant as in the conventional four-stroke engines, while the working medium is isolated from the crankcase lubricant as the working medium of the conventional four-stroke is isolated from the crankcase lubricant.
In the PatPortless the air sees no more lubricant oil than what it sees in the conventional four stroke engine

Longer piston dwell:

Unlike the conventional engines wherein the connecting rods are push-rods, the connecting rods of the PatPortLess are pull-rods: they are heavily loaded only in tension; the loads try to straighten / to unbend them (thinner and lightweight con-rods).

The PatPortLess arrangement shifts the combustion to the slow dead center.
In a conventional engine having a "connecting rod to stroke" ratio equal to 2, the crank angle during which the piston remains at the top 10% of its stroke is 66.2 degrees.
In a PatPortLess having a "connecting rod to stroke" ratio equal to 2, too, the crank angle during which the piston remains at the top 10% of its stroke is 83.9 degrees.

At the same revs (rpm), the piston of the PatPortLess remains in the top 10% of its stroke for 27% more time than the piston of the conventional (83.9/66.2=1.27).

Equivalently, when the PatPortLess operates at 27% higher revs than the conventional, the pistons of both remain in the top 10% of their strokes for the same time. For instance, when the abovementioned PatPortLess operates at 6000 rpm and the abovementioned conventional operates at only 4.750 rpm (=6000/1.27), the pistons of both remain in the top 10% of their strokes for (83.9/360)*(60/6000)=0.00233 seconds.

For lower "connecting rod to stroke" ratios, things get worse for the conventional.
For shorter intervals near the CTDC (say 5% of the piston stroke instead of the 10% used in the previous comparison), things get worse for the conventional.

In a reciprocating engine having 15:1 compression ratio:
when the piston has covered 5% of its stroke moving away from the Combustion TDC, the "remaining" expansion ratio has drop to 8.8:1; any quantity of fuel burned at that moment would undergo an expansion ratio of 8.8.
when the piston has covered 10% of its stroke moving away from the Combustion TDC, the "remaining" expansion ratio has drop to 6.25:1; any quantity of fuel burned at that moment would undergo an expansion ratio of only 6.25.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Blanchimont
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Seems as if Achates is also eager to develop two stroke opposed piston engines. They publish some papers on their homepage( http://www.achatespower.com/opposed-pis ... papers.php ).

They claim to have achieved an ITE of 53,5% with a single cylinder diesel 2T( page 4 and 5: http://www.achatespower.com/pdf/2013-Pr ... nology.pdf )

From page 17 of http://www.achatespower.com/pdf/MTZ_2014_Final.pdf
"The Achates Power opposed-piston, two-stroke engine has demonstrated a cycle weighted average
brake thermal efficiency (BTE) of 41.8%
with engine hardware and calibration that are still in an early
stage of development"

Edit: The last pages of http://www.achatespower.com/pdf/opposed ... ssance.pdf show some interesting numbers on power density.
Last edited by Blanchimont on 22 Jan 2015, 16:42, edited 1 time in total.
Dear FIA, if you read this, please pm me for a redesign of the Technical Regulations to avoid finger nose shapes for 2016! :-)

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dren
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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I don't understand why you need a cam on the valve actuation for the valves on the piston. Can't those fingers just be stationary, or at least slightly sprung to reduce impacting forces?
Honda!

Blanchimont
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Those fingers probably modify the valve opening displacement and keep them opened for a longer time period!?
Dear FIA, if you read this, please pm me for a redesign of the Technical Regulations to avoid finger nose shapes for 2016! :-)

manolis
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Dren.

You write:
“I don't understand why you need a cam on the valve actuation for the valves on the piston. Can't those fingers just be stationary, or at least slightly sprung to reduce impacting forces?”

I suppose you mean a mechanism like that used for the actuation of the transfer valve on the piston of the PatMar engine

Image

As shown at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatMar.htm the valve can open and close smoothly (and so reliably and quietly).

But as the rpm increase, you need a better control over the motion of the transfer valves.
This is the case with the PatPortLess Diesel that can make its peak torque and its peak power at substantially higher revs than the conventional Diesels.

If it is not clear, please let me know to further explain.


Hello Blanchimont.

You write:
“Those fingers probably modify the valve opening displacement and keep them opened for a longer time period!?”

Quote from http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatPortLess.htm

Transfer camlobe profile:
A good transfer camlobe profile has to allow the transfer valves to pass smoothly, quietly and reliably from the motion with the piston to the motion with the valve actuator (and vice versa), it also has to protect the transfer valves, and their restoring springs, from excessive valve lifts.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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uniflow wrote:Isn't interesting that the Crecy was concived as a high power, high fuel consuption short range combat engine and yet when tested turned out to be very economical on fuel, better than the fourstrokes of the day.
the Crecy gave very good bsfc when compounded ie equipped with an exhaust recovery turbine eg 0.37 lb/hp-hr at high, eg 90% power
but was not so good at a low cruise power eg 0.42 lb at 25% power

16000 Wright 'Turbo-compounds' flew at a brochure 0.38 lb (or 0.37lb in the 7.25 cr versions) at sea level around 50% power cruise
0.37 lb would match the (CI) Nomad claimed efficiency from 1954 (Avgas having several % less calorific value)
in 1954 the Wright TC performance was still a military secret (no engines having reached the airlines)

significantly for the Crecy the Merlin 24 tested for long range showed that 0.36 - 0.37 lb was possible with a recovery turbine
this at the low 25% - 50% powers required for long range
on this basis the RR report to the Air Research Council in 1946 downplayed the Crecy (p 95-6 in the RR Heritage Crecy book)

above sea level all these bsfcs were improved by the turbine work increasing with the fall in ambient pressure with altitude
(assuming the RR values are sea level values, the Wright values certainly are)
though Wrights were on 115/145 fuel, RR on 100/130

it's hardly surprising that the Crecy was improved by compounding, the early exhaust opening left lots of exhaust energy
the 4 strokes also had some excess exhaust energy, because their CRs were quite low to allow very high boost for takeoff etc
but compounding was best only for relatively low and slow flight
otherwise it was better to use exhaust energy to produce thrust by jet action - Wright made no secret of this

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dren
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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manolis wrote:But as the rpm increase, you need a better control over the motion of the transfer valves.
This is the case with the PatPortLess Diesel that can make its peak torque and its peak power at substantially higher revs than the conventional Diesels.
Got it, thanks!
Honda!

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FW17
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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If a 2 stoke was made in the Porsche 919 lmp config ; V4 exhaust driven turbo and a energy recovery system, will it be anywhere close to the fuel efficiency and performance of the 4 stroke?

A limitation of 2 stroke was energy loss at high rpm through insufficient blow down time, RR Crecy countered this mechanical compounding of the engine, but now with electrical compounding being more accessible combined with 2 stroke ability for compression ignition in low and mid rpm ranges wont this make it a more efficient engine for race and road use?

J.A.W.
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Yes W-F1, & that is very probably why the blatant ban on 2Ts in F1 is there..
..since a frank appraisal - even by such as - we in this thread - on this august forum - makes clear..

Given a 'clean slate' design approach - even one based on BSFC - the current 4T F1 machine would be.. ..humbled/humiliated..
..in manifold performance measure parameters ..by such a 2T..

Since just as the famed engineer ol' Scotty was wont to correctly lecture his skipper..

"Ye cannae change the laws o' physics - Capt'n! "
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

riff_raff
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Tommy Cookers wrote:the Crecy gave very good bsfc when compounded ie equipped with an exhaust recovery turbine eg 0.37 lb/hp-hr at high, eg 90% power but was not so good at a low cruise power eg 0.42 lb at 25% power

16000 Wright 'Turbo-compounds' flew at a brochure 0.38 lb (or 0.37lb in the 7.25 cr versions) at sea level around 50% power cruise 0.37 lb would match the (CI) Nomad claimed efficiency from 1954 (Avgas having several % less calorific value)
in 1954 the Wright TC performance was still a military secret (no engines having reached the airlines)

significantly for the Crecy the Merlin 24 tested for long range showed that 0.36 - 0.37 lb was possible with a recovery turbine this at the low 25% - 50% powers required for long range on this basis the RR report to the Air Research Council in 1946 downplayed the Crecy (p 95-6 in the RR Heritage Crecy book)

above sea level all these bsfcs were improved by the turbine work increasing with the fall in ambient pressure with altitude
(assuming the RR values are sea level values, the Wright values certainly are) though Wrights were on 115/145 fuel, RR on 100/130

it's hardly surprising that the Crecy was improved by compounding, the early exhaust opening left lots of exhaust energy
the 4 strokes also had some excess exhaust energy, because their CRs were quite low to allow very high boost for takeoff etc but compounding was best only for relatively low and slow flight otherwise it was better to use exhaust energy to produce thrust by jet action - Wright made no secret of this
The performance numbers RR published for the Crecy should be taken with a grain of salt. The Crecy only ran on a test stand, and the total time run by all of the Crecy test engines was less than 200 hours. The Crecy was a high-performance 2T and its high EGTs would have been hard on the turbine materials available at the time. Also, once the Crecy was redesigned for use in an actual aircraft, it would have become much bulkier, heavier, and less efficient than the test rigs.
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