Spatial awereness

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Cold Fussion
Cold Fussion
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Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 04:51

Re: Spatial awereness

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I'm not saying the F35 agood aeroplane, it quite clearly is an unmitigated disaster.

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
61
Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Spatial awereness

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indeed, the dutch government is one of those idiotic governments which continue to pay trillions of dollars under the veil of 'partnered research development' to disguise they're stuck with these rediculous endless money sucking disasters. In fact, they could have chosen Saab 'competitor' fighter jets which are MORE then adequate and capable then the F(ail)-35.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Spatial awereness

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Indeed, the F-35 saga appears to be another classic case of the "Emperor's New Clothes"..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

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turbof1
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Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 21:36
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Spatial awereness

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Not to encourage further off-topic discussion, but you know who is more stupid then the dutch government? The Belgian government for having all the data on maintenance costs yet still very much wanting to buy them too.
#AeroFrodo

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Spatial awereness

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Going back to the topic of "spatial awareness" of an F1 driver vs the pilot of an F-35, F-18, V-22, US Space Shuttle, or even the Apollo Lunar Lander, I say the F1 driver has a far less demanding task since the consequences of failure are not the same. The F-35 or F-18 pilot landing on an aircraft carrier at night faces a life/death situation. The V-22 pilot making a vertical landing under combat conditions with enough dust being kicked-up to create a brown-out is performing an incredibly dangerous maneuver. The Space Shuttle pilot had a single chance to perform an un-powered landing of what was basically a flying brick.

And lastly, the single most impressive example of piloting in history was Neil Armstrong manually landing the Apollo 11 Lunar Lander on the face of the moon in 1969. His "spatial awareness" was severely complicated by the minimal lunar gravity, extremely limited amount of fuel reserves, and by the tiny little side window he had to look out of while performing this vertical landing. This was a feat that had never been done before, in a location Armstrong had never seen, using a vehicle that had never been flown in this environment, and if Armstrong got it wrong it would be the end for him and Aldrin. Needless to say, Armstrong made a safe landing with 18 seconds worth of fuel to spare.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Spatial awereness

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To be fair, there was quite a bit of luck involved in that moon landing..
Neil Armstrong had had a fair bit of history in pushing his luck, & got away with it that time..

There were a couple of S. Shuttle missions where the skipper couldn't save his crew either..

Any F1 W-Champ would very probably have the potential coordination skills to train for landing an aircraft..
Not so many pilots would likely make an F1 World Champion...
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Cold Fussion
Cold Fussion
93
Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 04:51

Re: Spatial awereness

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Surely the spatial awareness of WW2 fighter aces would have to rank pretty highly, maneuvering your plane through complex turns while keeping track of one or more enemy fighters is not a straight forward task.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Spatial awereness

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"riff_raff"]Going back to the topic of "spatial awareness" of an F1 driver vs the pilot of an F-35, F-18, V-22, US Space Shuttle, or even the Apollo Lunar Lander, I say the F1 driver has a far less demanding task since the consequences of failure are not the same. The F-35 or F-18 pilot landing on an aircraft carrier at night faces a life/death situation. The V-22 pilot making a vertical landing under combat conditions with enough dust being kicked-up to create a brown-out is performing an incredibly dangerous maneuver. The Space Shuttle pilot had a single chance to perform an un-powered landing of what was basically a flying brick.


Spatial awareness is affected by the demands of the task but not by the consequences of failure.
I would agree that landing on a carrier at night is probably one task where spatial awareness is severely restricted.
However the landing aids make the task strait forward and it is usually when their is a mechanical failure or in extreme weather when problems arise where the pilots spacial awareness is stretched to the limit.
I would rate the skills required as equal to F1 driving.
IMO the Osprey V-22 is a dangerous design with little reserve control capability in any mechanically compromised situation.
The 'brown' outs you mention when dust is blown up obscuring vision and dangerously effecting the engine intakes and any delicate flight controls and gearing is as a direct result of the flawed concept of tilt wing helicopter flight.
The British designed and in service Fairy Rotodyne of the early 1960s was a far far better design concept for this operating roll and a modern version would have a superior performance and much higher safety than the Osprey.
A modern version of the Rotodyne with its un-powered rotor would have at least an extra 100 knots airspeed, twice the range and a higher payload.
The Rotodyne was an autogyro and on short landings (less than 50 yards) did not disturb the ground dust at all.
It could also operate with full VTOL with complete safety if the engines failed.
Our own Wallis W116 autogyro also displayed this capability being able to attack armour with rockets three feet off the ground at over 100 mph with no dust cloud, heat signature or radar image.
It costs no more than a police car.
The Space Shuttle was an orbiter concept that originated in Nazi Germany in the late 1940's.
There are much superior ideas which have not been developed because of the high cost and America's domination of space research.
I know of two which remain on the drawing board.

And lastly, the single most impressive example of piloting in history was Neil Armstrong manually landing the Apollo 11 Lunar Lander on the face of the moon in 1969. His "spatial awareness" was severely complicated by the minimal lunar gravity, extremely limited amount of fuel reserves, and by the tiny little side window he had to look out of while performing this vertical landing. This was a feat that had never been done before, in a location Armstrong had never seen, using a vehicle that had never been flown in this environment, and if Armstrong got it wrong it would be the end for him and Aldrin. Needless to say, Armstrong made a safe landing with 18 seconds worth of fuel to spare.
Neil was indeed a fine pilot, however the Apollo landers were even then computer controlled mainly.
I have not been to the Moon but I would guess that spatial awareness is not a major issue, in fact it is probably easier to be aware of your environment there than in many places and situations on Earth.

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Spatial awereness

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Cold Fussion wrote:Surely the spatial awareness of WW2 fighter aces would have to rank pretty highly, maneuvering your plane through complex turns while keeping track of one or more enemy fighters is not a straight forward task.
I think all WW2 fighter aces gained their domination and kill rates by using well thought out and applied tactics.
In dogfights, luck and experience were the main components.
I spoke at length to Adolph Galland some years ago and he confirmed this.
He always waited until he had a distinct advantage, usually height and Sun position.
He always ran from a disadvantaged position, i.e if bounced, low on fuel/ammo or outnumbered over enemy territory.
The best kill was obtained from well above the target, diving at max speed and getting out fast.
No time or need for difficult turns.
A high level of spatial awareness was almost certainly part of being an ace, as was good marksmanship.
Modern fighters are mostly just mountings for electronics.
It is these devices that fight the battle.
This is why the Americans will say the F35 works.
It does against inferior electronics in earlier generation aircraft.
A tiger Moth with decent electronics would probably fair almost as well with the latest electronics.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Spatial awereness

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afaik the term is 'Situational Awareness'

Armstrong's manual operation was needed because the computer had given up on the task
it had given up on the task because Aldrin had overloaded it
overloaded it by prematurely using it to work on post-abort courses
they had never ever tried this before, and it was never in their trainng
unauthorised action

an ex-F15 pilot I flew with a few times told me that ....
in F15 training (USAF but including Luftwaffe or whatever it was then called) that Erich Hartmann gave a talk
he said his 109 last-resort trump card in evasion was a (half) outside snap aka negative flick roll (remember, it has slots)
then, after a few days, 6 F15s had been lost and the General gave all the pilots a big telling-off

Eric Muller said that jet pilots (literally) don't know an inside snap or spin from an outside one (they don't train for this)
going outside ie a dominant -AoA only by accident they assume or expect it to be an inside spin ie a dominant +AoA
control inputs for recovery from an inside spin are of course the inputs to generate or hold an outside spin
iirc in the Pitts remembering to look'above' the top wing will guarantee proper identification - maybe that's why Pitts gave it 2 wings ?
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 28 Jan 2015, 21:16, edited 1 time in total.

olefud
olefud
79
Joined: 13 Mar 2011, 00:10
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA

Re: Spatial awereness

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This is a fine mixture of apples and cumquats. I’m not a pilot but did get signed off for solo flight which I used to explore unusual attitudes and such. Karts and motorcycles afford excellent spatial feedback and awareness. Aircraft are untrustworthy for inferring such except for visual which is diminished by distance from reference points. It’s more the rule to come out from under the hood to find that the horizon has seriously confused itself than not.

WWII fighter pilots gained primarily from eyesight and tactics. For instance, over Darwin the supreme Spitfire dogfighter was chewed up by Zeros until they learned that the Zeke lost aileron response with speed. Differing specifics but same lesson in other theaters.

The American aerospace effort was surrogate combat with the Soviets. Rather like poker. While the Soviets won the early hands the purposely extravagant stakes exhausted their resources and they couldn’t cover the bet on the unlikely Star Wars down card. While a great strategy in its time we for some reason keep playing the same now useless game. Probably because the ever gullible public is conditioned to the outlandish spending.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Spatial awereness

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The early US astronauts were ex-military test pilots who resented being "Spam in a can",
or human chimpanzee analogues - for the ex-Nazi scientists running things..

They wanted meaningful flight control options, & they were correct - since computers..
& drones - weren't up to it then..

Of course, as far as we know, no human has been outside close Earth orbit ( kept safely inside the Van Allen belts)
for 40 years now.. ..& its not likely they will be any in the next 40 either..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

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strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Spatial awereness

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I'm lost as to how Spatial awareness has anything to do with Aerodynamics, chassis and tyres :?
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Spatial awereness

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In F1 racing, the driver must combine spatial awareness with his control inputs of the car's steering, brakes and throttle. The spatial awareness is his perception of the track, other cars around him, and even how other drivers around him will react.

The best fighter pilots of any generation were guys that could remain calm under any circumstances. And in this regard F1 drivers are similar to fighter pilots. But spacial awareness in auto racing is not the same as that involved with flying a fighter. The spatial awareness situation driving a race car is mostly 2 dimensional, while flying a fighter is a 3 dimensional task.

The F1 car responds instantly and directly to steering and braking inputs, while a jet fighter can take a bit longer to respond to control inputs and the path the aircraft follows is far less precise.

Lastly, here's a video showing how cool Neil Armstrong was under pressure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Q_9RlJTfg
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Spatial awereness

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Yeah r-r, that vid actually shows Neil losing/stacking it..

But you are correct in your view of skilled timely responses - as being due spatial awareness,

& Strad, F1 has downforce to contend with, but motorcycles certainly do race in all 4 dimensions..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).