Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren

[checkered]

Something from

another thread I wrote two weeks ago:

Hey, reminiscing about the

"good olden days" doesn't harm anyone (unless it's done on the clock), but perhaps you're missing a big point here. Brawn, Todt, Byrne etc. aren't exactly young and even if they might (just) be on the top of their games now they certainly see a new generation coming. New ideas, new schooling, a lot of energy. They all know that and, mostly, are managing a transition. That is not to say that the experience of the old guard isn't useful or indeed indispensable, but it needs to be applied where it's most advantageous.

Change doesn't equal disarray. Some individuals may get more lost than others when seeking the way forward. No matter how well the "dream team" supported Schumacher, that success in no way can be replicated with exactly the same formula with another driver. It is not a matter of comparisons, it's a function of time. If Ferrari does anything, it plans ahead and there have long been signs that the team is consciously evolving around its new drivers, with relatively young but proven talent being put forward. That is not only forward thinking, it is necessary.

Doesn't seem too far off the mark concerning the rather amateurish "espionage" saga, now does it? I'm sure Ferrari will be OK. The same goes for McLaren who still have the likes of Paddy Lowe, Pat Fry, Tim Goss and Neil Oatley working for them. Even Honda, in their plight, decided against hiring the two ("alledged co-conspirators"), a sound judgement from Fry even if he wasn't aware that the couple apparently was in possession of something beyond their experience. Copying someone is the fast track to second best and recycling old ideas doesn't get you even that far.

Working somewhere for a long time inevitably affects perception. It might very well seem to someone in such a situation that immaterial proprietary rights are somewhat irrational or relative to the amount of personal effort put to the property in a wider context. Friendship isn't entirely rational either. I'm not very shocked, nor angry about what seems to have happened. Sometimes it just takes a step back to avoid making mistakes that on hindsight prove to be pretty embarrassing. I can imagine that in F1, it can be hard to find time to do even that.

I'm not trying to find excuses for questionable actions, just pondering how human an affair this seems to be, after all.

[chasefreak]

one thing does not fit right ... if mclaren had to benifit from NS giving MC the documents then why would MC and NS both go to HONDA in search of a job ... is that not strange. perhaps MC was not happy too at mclaren...

[checkered]

And here's Stepney's account ... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... ll_account

[Rob W]

...and Honda.

A third team is being dragged into the Ferrari-McLaren espionage affair - Honda.

--------------------------------

Looks like you might be right Rob

Must be my crystal ball.. To me the most likely probability was that they'd have wanted to use the info at a new team and it's looking more like this could be the case now.

Rob W

[FLC]

Well after the hearing today, at least 2 facts are now confirmed:

Ferrari's action is being taken against Coughlan and his wife Trudy Coughlan, who is now alleged to have taken the 780-page Ferrari document at the centre of the controversy to a photocopying shop near Woking to be reproduced.

It was a staff member from the photocopying shop who tipped off Ferrari about the matter when they saw that the documents were confidential and belonged to the Maranello team.

How stupid does one need to be to do something like that?! and near Woking?

also:

However, there was no definitive answer on whether Neale was told about the situation before Ferrari's legal action against the Coughlan's began or after.

Ferrari's lawyer said: "It is unclear when and how Neale was told about the documents."

Makes you wonder who else could've known about it. Maybe that is why RD is so upset?

and one more:

But the case was delayed until tomorrow because Coughlan, who was present but did not speak, wants clarification about self-incrimination privileges and how they related to the ongoing legal investigation taking place in Italy against Nigel Stepney.

[RH1300S]

The whole thing beggars belief........it looks like there is little doubt that Coughlan had Ferrari documents (question is how did he get them).

Is Coughlan that stupid? He is operating at a high level in a high level sport, he gets offered these documents. Any rational person would back off and say hang on, I don't want them in my possession (you would know the consequences would be really serious). You would discuss this with your boss (Ron) and act accordingly. I just can't believe for a second that Ron Dennis knew - he's too smart to get caught like that (and probably too honest).

Then.............even IF you ignored all of the above and you had the things, you would tell NO ONE, not even your wife. For sure you wouldn't send them out into the public domain to get them copied...............is he an IDIOT???!!!!

[allan]

.is he an IDIOT???!!!!

Apparently YES

[Tifoso]

Apparently, another member of the team Vodafone McDiesels Mercedes is involved. His name, Jonathan Neal; his position Managing Director. So, this is getting bigger and bigger, and I hope it all ends up with all questions anwsered.

http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formula1/ ... ndra.shtml

Until now, 2 out of 3 members of the high technical side of the team (that appear on the site in pics ) have been involved in here. Wait and see what Paddy Lowe has done

http://www.mclaren.com/theteam/technical.php

[checkered]

Jonathan Neal wouldn't have

much use for any specific information; he manages the design process, not the actual designing itself as I understand it. (Besides, Ferrari pointed out that they're not going to press charges against Neal. There is only some confusion as to when, exactly, he was informed about the documents.) The design work is (was) the responsibility of five engineers, (Lowe, Fry, Goss, Oatley and Coughlan) at least two of whom take the lead in creating McLaren's cars on alternate years so as to relieve the pressure of working on more than one project at a time. The MP4-22, for example is Pat Fry's "baby" and Tim Goss is already concentrating on the 23. Or something like that.

Coughlan was last in charge (though Newey was still in the house also) of the MP4-18-become-MP4-19, an expensive and frustrating project for the team with all the problems and necessary variations the design met along the way. That extended experience might've left him somewhat compromised, or feeling that, at McLaren - who knows? It has to be said that it's strange that the Ferrari designs he was found to be in posession with were in paper form (although I think there were two "disks" found too, might've been an unsubstantiated report). I mean, in these days it's pretty inconvenient to wean out useful information out of printed documents.

And what an earth did he need copies made of them for? Incompatible design software but somehow found in a local copy shop? Sounds impropable to me. Fortunately Coughlan making copies out-of-house is pretty strong indirect evidence that McLaren had no knowledge of the documents. It's another thing whether Coughlan would've presented some Ferrari information within his team as his own ... but I think the "flexi floor" clarification debate precedes the earliest possible date when the Ferrari documents verifiably could've had anything to do with Coughlan. I haven't checked for this, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Smart people do stupid things and stupid people smart things, it's not that straightforward, all this. Also, there seems to be no connection established between Stepney and Coughlan in actually exchanging any documents between each other. That's one big "but", even if their joint job seeking visit to Honda is hard to interpret as anything other than clear motivation to review as much available data as possible should they be hired. If I were at McLaren, I'd be also asking whether it was possible that Stepney also had the latest McLaren designs at hand? Next to impossible to investigate without copyshop blunders, though. At this point, had there been any such documents, they'd be burned on some picturesque beach in Philippines by now, anyway.

The top end of the F1 design community isn't very large. Engaging in acts of amateurish "industrial espionage" in such small circles represents a major lapse in judgement - and thus a judgement a court may pass for the persons involved in an institutionalised way after all. Stepney himself said/wrote in his press statement something to the fact that making copies is redundant as what's in one's head is all that matters. Now, there's a thought.

[Rob W]

Is Coughlan that stupid? He is operating at a high level in a high level sport, he gets offered these documents.

I agree... surely he could have hired a photocopier for 100 pounds. How could someone with such acumen be so slack? Perhaps he's a crazy genius-type person - the ones who are gurus at their job but can't put their shirt on the right way without help or understand simple jokes.

I'm still waiting for more info to come out. I'm betting money that McLaren are gearing up for a technical staff clean-out and law-suits to search everyone's houses, emails, wifes emails etc - if they haven't done already.

Meanwhile, Fry at Honda,... not so sure they wouldn't entertain the idea of hiring a pairing like Stepney/Coughlan. It looks good on paper and Honda really are making arses of themselves year after year almost as a routine. Surely they would jump at a chance to hire a duo with such close knowledge of the two top teams even without any drawings.

Rob W

[pRo]

Is Coughlan that stupid? He is operating at a high level in a high level sport, he gets offered these documents.

I agree... surely he could have hired a photocopier for 100 pounds.

I understood that he had the data in digital format. Various sites say that Coughlan had two computer discs, which contained 780 pages of Ferrari material. And his wife made digital copies of the data.

Something doesn't add up. A guy who uses computers all the time can't copy two discs? But instead sends his wife to a public store to make copies of them? Either he wanted to get caught or he's one of those guys who can only turn a computer on and use the one program he has learned. Some ppl can be genious in what they do, but have absolutely no idea when it comes to computers outside the software they use.

[Rob W]

I understood that he had the data in digital format. Various sites say that Coughlan had two computer discs..

Something doesn't add up. A guy who uses computers all the time can't copy two discs?..

Exactly... practically every computer built in the last five years would be able to copy a disc. Moreso, if they did do it at a copy centre, then how would the person at the shop know what they were doing? Surely he didn't have to ask an 18 year old part-timer to help him copy a disc?? If so, I don't think I'd want him on my technical team.

I suspect there is something missing from this story that will make all previous details seem like nothing...

Rob W

[FLC]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60706

Looks like Ferrari's prime target is Nigel Stepney. They've reached an agreement with Coughlan, so that he would fully cooperate with the investigation, and in return wont face possible criminal charges in Italy.

[Tifoso]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60706

Looks like Ferrari's prime target is Nigel Stepney. They've reached an agreement with Coughlan, so that he would fully cooperate with the investigation, and in return wont face possible criminal charges in Italy.

Or maybe they prefer to pull his tongue and know more about who is behind him, and what kind of information he gave (if he did) to who, who was the man behind or the team behind. Things that can help to know much more about the matter.

[enkidu]

This is so crap... Why can you get done for having a few documents... Lets say I had blueprints of the new skyline. Could I get arrested? I just wouldn't let the police in the house for the dodgy italians!