Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren

[RH1300S]

It's absolutely right and proper that people get hauled up for espionage (in F1 or any other business for that matter).

Sadly, for McLaren - if it turns out that these documents were used improperly within the organisation, then it would only be right that they bear the consequences (I hate to say that, I really do.......). The organisation has to be responisble for the actions of their employees - hard, but true.

What I find curious is that statements/defence seems to be along the lines of - we can prove that none of this information found it's way onto our cars. Well, so what? Possession of the information could give them a valuable insight into how their competitors cars operate and that insight may give them an edge in a race one day. Also, who's to say that the information might not help McLaren making on the mark protests about parts of dubious legality...........You don't need to copy stuff to gain advantage from it.

Boy.....I really hope this washes out and leaves McLaren spotless...........Ron Dennis does not deserve this to happen in his organisation (I'll happily eat my words if he is involved BTW )

[monkeyboy1976]

Not sure if anyone has read this:-

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19401.html

Quote from the article:
"The data that was found in Coughlan's possession would have been much more interesting to a team that might need to design and build a car from scratch."

McLaren are in talks with Prodrive. Has Coughlan been in discussions with Dave Richards?
Maybe I am just paranoid.

[enkidu]

It is quite funny but if he acted on he's own accord to get more employability from another team like Honda/Prodrive/Spiker etc then why should Mclaren be responsible? If the documents have never been seen by anyone else but Coughlan then how can Mclaren be prosecuted?


I'd love to get hold of those documents.... LOL @ Ferrari they seem to be falling to bits lately. Couldn't have happened to a nicer team LMAO

[allan]

i've been thinking lately:
How do they know that those documents were not used in their cars? It was their head designer who had the documents! and he's had them for over a month or two... Therefore, to "investigate" whether the info was used they'd have to compare the cars, to the documents themselves, right??

[FLC]

How come Ron Dennis could categorically deny using the stolen documents for developing their own car already in Silverstone, but never denied using them to point out Ferrari in the flexing floors saga, which is a lot easier and eligible question? Don't you think that's a little bit weird? I know he's considered highly honest but something about his reaction feels a bit exaggerated.

[dumrick]

Come on, Nick Fry's declarations (" For us, they are just two guys looking for a job") are pretty much auto-explanatory...

Prodrive will get a costumer chassis, for all that has been said. And what rhymes better with "needs to be designed from scratch" than "Honda F1"???

[Rob W]

It is quite funny but if he acted on he's own accord to get more employability from another team like Honda/Prodrive/Spiker etc then why should Mclaren be responsible? If the documents have never been seen by anyone else but Coughlan then how can Mclaren be prosecuted?

It's simple. The team is in breach because on of its employees was in possession of the documents. They have a duty, as does the employee via his contract details, to maintain the rules (and spirit) of the sport within their organisation. Win as a team, lose as a team.

McLaren will obviously mitigate their involvement by casting Coughlan loose - but they may not be able to satisfy the FIA enough to avoid some punishment. The FIA has to consider that, in every situation like this, the team will immediately claim they knew nothing about it and paint the person as a traitor/outsider or whatever.

Rob W

[Rob W]

Another aspect of this which is sure to come out is this: considering Stepney and Coughlan were teaming up with the intention of moving to another team - it is highly likely that Coughlan also has possession of some McLaren technical drawings as well. (yes, despite being able to claim he had work to do at home)

It would be naive to assume he and Stepney joined up and agreed "OK Nigel, you get the Ferrari designs" without their also being a "and I'll get the McLaren ones" added somewhere in there.

This reeks of either an amateurish attempt to get ahead or that someone (Ferrari?) have embellished a lot of this. I'm not mitigating the seriousness of it but, really, how could these two guys swap this info and one of them print it out ON PAPER and then attempt to photo-copy them in a public place (with wife in tow)? I struggle to see how they could be so stupid, which leads me to think there is something more - a lot more - that hasn't come out yet.

Rob W

[Scuderia_Russ]

Well thats talcum powder. No I'm not joking, the mechanics use talcum powder to help stuff the fuel 'bag' into its hole without removing the entire engine!

Tis true. Bag tanks are a bugger to fit. Once they are in the handle end of a rubber mallet or similar is used to poke the corners out. I've heard of all sorts being found in F1 fuel tanks from mallets to Stanley knives!!

[FLC]

"Coughlan confided with several colleagues"
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60794

[Torso]

I think McLaren is 100% guilty.

They where probably looking for any illegalities on the Ferrari rather than to copy elements of the Ferrari car. Anyway the way they got their hands on the information IS pure and simple theft.

McLaren must be given a substantial penalty that clearly shows this sort of arangements are NOT acceptable in any form!

This is 10 times worse than ignoring a black flag and the FIA needs to set an exsample for the future!

[Sawtooth-spike]

I think McLaren is 100% guilty.

They where probably looking for any illegalities on the Ferrari rather than to copy elements of the Ferrari car. Anyway the way they got their hands on the information IS pure and simple theft.

McLaren must be given a substantial penalty that clearly shows this sort of arangements are NOT acceptable in any form!

This is 10 times worse than ignoring a black flag and the FIA needs to set an exsample for the future!

you would.

The cars are nothing alike, they are build in totaly differant ways to achive the same thing.

also as i think has been said befor, these document only turned up a few months ago. and F1 cars are designed like a year befor they race.

The only question is did the team know he had the documents, did they use them to there advantage.

If they are his actions and his actions alone, (well him and his wife) then Mclaren have no responibility for his actions, if he acted of his own judgement and free will.

If they did use it, look at it, or know about it, then Mclaren are going to get done!

Oh by the way do you think They will put this into the darwin awards?, after all how thick do u need to be to go to the shops to get it photocopyed. why not just go buy an expensive scanner?

[modbaraban]

The cars are nothing alike, they are build in totaly differant ways to achive the same thing.

Defending himself Nigel Setpney said something like: "Ferrari are afraid that I know too much. Why do I need any papers on F2007 design? It's all in my head. Nickolas Tombazis came from McLaren and he didn't need to steal any data to introduce it here. He had everything in his head and introduced that McLaren style front wing...."
sorry I couldn't find any source in Engilsh with this inetrview (published on 8th July)

[Rob W]

If they are his actions and his actions alone, (well him and his wife) then Mclaren have no responibility for his actions, if he acted of his own judgement and free will....

I think this line of defense isn't going to do very well for McLaren. The rules of the sport say the team is liable for what goes on inside it's walls. A single dodgy/silly staff-member can be cast out upon discover of 'whatever' but they are an agent of the team.

McLaren will be, at it's best, trying to dissociate itself from Coughlan but they are in breach of the rules merely by having a team-member in possession of another team's intellectual property.

Rob W

[FLC]

Defending himself Nigel Setpney said something like: "Ferrari are afraid that I know too much. Why do I need any papers on F2007 design? It's all in my head. Nickolas Tombazis came from McLaren and he didn't need to steal any data to introduce it here. He had everything in his head and introduced that McLaren style front wing...."

This is prob. more accurate:

"But do you think (chief designer) Nicolas Tombazis came to Ferrari from McLaren without something in his mind? The new Ferrari front end aero came from McLaren, because it was in his head.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60613

Which I've already commented about a few pages back: it prob. ends with the zero keel design.

I dont know about you guys, but no matter when Neale knew about the documents, whether in April or March, do you really think he would keep it a secret from RD? I mean even if he wanted to protect him, RD's thoro way of controlling things inside the team would prob. make him tell. and now with this latest autosport.com update about Coughlan confiding with others, which is prob. reliable, it's even clearer, atleast in my eyes, that RD must have known something.