Alonso's Crash

[Cuky]

ok, now lets discuss 'b)'
he had an electric shock which caused him to crash due to momentary paralysis. (his hands stayed stuck turning right and he couldn't move for a bit)
highly unlikely. first you have to be grounded to get an electric shock, as the charge wants to go to ground. Also, if he received it through the steering wheel, the steering wheel would have to be earthed. (not sure it is).
ok, for sake of argument, if we say that he did get an electric shock, that explains the ambulance, it explains the scans etc, and it also explains mclaren packing up early and button not running, due to them not wanting the same thing happening to him.

I don't really see how he could get an electric shock inside the cockpit because, as you say, you need to be grounded for current to pass through your body (or your body needs to connect to points with quite different electric potential).

But two previous mishaps with electric systems in F1 came to my mind where drivers weren't in any danger.
1) Winter testing before 2009. season, Jerez. BMW Sauber comes into the pits (with driver obviously inside) and parks in front of the garage for mechanics to push him back in. Driver is all OK, while first mechanic who touched the car got an electric shock from faulty KERS unit. Mechanic was standing on the ground, so he was obviously grounded when he touched the car and current passed through him from the car into the ground.
2) Late in 2014 season there was an ERS problem on one car (I don't remember correctly if that was Lotus or Williams). Driver came back in to the pits and mechanics pushed the car back inside the garage, all wearing pink protective rubber gloves. In the meantime his engineer instructed him over the radio to make sure that he does not touch the car on two separate places (if places aren't one piece and there is some resistance between them they will have different electric potential and by touching both of them one could receive a shock) and have also instructed him to jump out of the car instead of putting one leg at the time on the ground.

In both cases drivers were in car and they were fine without receiving any electric shock.



In any case, whatever is the reason for his going off the track, we all can just speculate. It is really not possible to reach valid conclusion based on wild guesses, eyewitness account (regarded as worst form of evidence) and from pictures. When McLaren and FIA are done with their investigation they will have all the evidence they need to get the conclusion and to share it with us. They have telemetry and material evidence at their disposal and it shouldn't be hard for them to find what happend in few days time.

[ecapox]

More photos of Alonso's accident here http://www.marca.com/albumes/2015/02/22 ... melo_2015/

From those pictures it looks like the impact was at a very shallow angle. 30g??

I don't know what happened but I can safely say, McLaren aren't telling the whole truth.

[Mesteño]

Also Tedt Kravitz basically ruled an electric shock; the cars, and electric systems, are grounded.

I think I read somewhere that engineer from Renault said it is not completely imposible.

Anyway, COPE radio just interviewed Abad again and believe me, that man is hiding something. He was avoiding any kind of matter, saying he didn't know, that he talked with Alonso about Real Madrid-Elche match of today, when it is known they are always together , that is difficult to believe.

He continuosly avoided questions, and when asked if there is a chance Alonso couldn't be at Melbourne GP, he says "I don't even know what he is going to eat tomorrow".

This PR thing is disgusting, we have the right to know I think.


As soon as they upload the audio I will post it.

[turbof1]

Also Tedt Kravitz basically ruled an electric shock; the cars, and electric systems, are grounded.

I think I read somewhere that engineer from Renault said it is not completely imposible.

Anyway, COPE radio just interviewed Abad again and believe me, that man is hiding something. He was avoiding any kind of matter, saying he didn't know, that he talked with Alonso about Real Madrid-Elche match of today, when it is known they are always together , that is difficult to believe.

He continuosly avoided questions, and when asked if there is a chance Alonso couldn't be at Melbourne GP, he says "I don't even know what he is going to eat tomorrow".

This PR thing is disgusting, we have the right to know I think.


As soon as they upload the audio I will post it.

To be honest, I can fully understand the way he reacted. Alonso barely set foot in the hospital or everybody wants to know if and when he's able to race again. He's in the hospital for observation. Once things are properly observed, we will get a proper answer. Is it so difficult to believe the people around him are careful with answering these questions before they are absolutely sure Alonso is fine?

That's the issue with trying to read something in everything.

[Mesteño]

Yes but the reasons for the accident are not a matter of observation, but of knowing. And he refuses to talk about it and says he doesn't know.

Here there is a transcription of what the photographer saw.
http://cadenaser.com/ser/2015/02/22/dep ... 59232.html

Here another interview, this much more precise
http://podcast.ondacero.es/mp_audios3/a ... /00034.mp3

In the audio, he says, he opened to take the curve as usual, and suddenly he went straight to the wall on the opposite side of the curve, but went slowly, like he wanted to park but instead he started to repeatedly crash with the wall until the car stopped. People who understand spanish, listen to the audio.

That doesn't fit with theories of 30g crashes, and fit more with a blackout or other problems.

Abad also says Alonso didn't lose conciousness, but this photographer says the doctor arrived and knocked the helmet of Alonso without response.

[turbof1]

Again: That's the issue with trying to read something in everything. Mclaren, the spoke person, Alonso, journalists, people on track, people who had contact with people on track, etc. all had a word in it. Not abnormal you'll get contradictions then. It's difficult to piece it together now, and the natural reaction then is to panic.

That's understandable, but please let's try to avoid that. Even if they lied, then it'll most likely be to protect the driver, to protect his dignity and privacy. Official word he's conscious in the hospital and is kept there for observation, I think those are good signs he'll be ok, which is the most important thing now. We will get a clear picture soon.

[stuartpengs]

It's the 30g aspect I'm struggling to come to terms with. I know Alonso suffered a 25g load at Abu Dhabi, but that was the downward with the car bottoming out on a solid surface (i.e. tarmac), I guess. I just don't see how it's possible to do that in this situation without significant damage to the car (assuming it was lateral, as he's not hit the front of the car) For context Hamilton's 165mph crash at Hockenhiem was a 30g impact wasn't it?

Still, then main thing is he's OK, and what ever will be will be.

[langwadt]

ok, now lets discuss 'b)'
he had an electric shock which caused him to crash due to momentary paralysis. (his hands stayed stuck turning right and he couldn't move for a bit)
highly unlikely. first you have to be grounded to get an electric shock, as the charge wants to go to ground. Also, if he received it through the steering wheel, the steering wheel would have to be earthed. (not sure it is).
ok, for sake of argument, if we say that he did get an electric shock, that explains the ambulance, it explains the scans etc, and it also explains mclaren packing up early and button not running, due to them not wanting the same thing happening to him.

I don't really see how he could get an electric shock inside the cockpit because, as you say, you need to be grounded for current to pass through your body (or your body needs to connect to points with quite different electric potential).

But two previous mishaps with electric systems in F1 came to my mind where drivers weren't in any danger.
1) Winter testing before 2009. season, Jerez. BMW Sauber comes into the pits (with driver obviously inside) and parks in front of the garage for mechanics to push him back in. Driver is all OK, while first mechanic who touched the car got an electric shock from faulty KERS unit. Mechanic was standing on the ground, so he was obviously grounded when he touched the car and current passed through him from the car into the ground.
2) Late in 2014 season there was an ERS problem on one car (I don't remember correctly if that was Lotus or Williams). Driver came back in to the pits and mechanics pushed the car back inside the garage, all wearing pink protective rubber gloves. In the meantime his engineer instructed him over the radio to make sure that he does not touch the car on two separate places (if places aren't one piece and there is some resistance between them they will have different electric potential and by touching both of them one could receive a shock) and have also instructed him to jump out of the car instead of putting one leg at the time on the ground.

ground is not magic, unless the car is grounded the kers has no reference to ground

[PhillipM]

It's the 30g aspect I'm struggling to come to terms with. I know Alonso suffered a 25g load at Abu Dhabi, but that was the downward with the car bottoming out on a solid surface (i.e. tarmac), I guess. I just don't see how it's possible to do that in this situation without significant damage to the car (assuming it was lateral, as he's not hit the front of the car) For context Hamilton's 165mph crash at Hockenhiem was a 30g impact wasn't it?
.

30G is nothing considering the strongest, stiffest part of the car (the rear suspension) hit the wall with no crumple zone, it only needs a short spike to set the alarm off.
Hell, I've registered 10-15g lateral regularly just in normal racing in the safari cars.

[stuartpengs]

It's the 30g aspect I'm struggling to come to terms with. I know Alonso suffered a 25g load at Abu Dhabi, but that was the downward with the car bottoming out on a solid surface (i.e. tarmac), I guess. I just don't see how it's possible to do that in this situation without significant damage to the car (assuming it was lateral, as he's not hit the front of the car) For context Hamilton's 165mph crash at Hockenhiem was a 30g impact wasn't it?
.

30G is nothing considering the strongest, stiffest part of the car (the rear suspension) hit the wall with no crumple zone, it only needs a short spike to set the alarm off.
Hell, I've registered 10-15g lateral regularly just in normal racing in the safari cars.

Ah OK, I guess that makes sense Phillip, thanks. Perhaps I was using Hamilton's 30g for similarity when of course there's other factors.

[PhillipM]

Yep, mainly depends on how long it's applied for, you can take immense g-forces if it's only for brief periods.
There's something else too, all those on here saying the car was 'lightly damaged' and they can't understand why it didn't go back out - it smashed the back wheel off and rubbed down the wall whilst doing it, so chances are it's hammered the driveshaft past it's plunge limit and into the diff in the gearbox whilst still rotating under load - that's a lot of damage, even if it looks okay.

[Alonso Fan]

Yep, mainly depends on how long it's applied for, you can take immense g-forces if it's only for brief periods.
There's something else too, all those on here saying the car was 'lightly damaged' and they can't understand why it didn't go back out - it smashed the back wheel off and rubbed down the wall whilst doing it, so chances are it's hammered the driveshaft past it's plunge limit and into the diff in the gearbox whilst still rotating under load - that's a lot of damage, even if it looks okay.

Good point, I never thought of that

[Italiano]

The more we learn about Alonso, the more I suspect he got an electric shock from the ERS crap in these F1 cars. The wierdest crash he's ever had, a man that otherwise drives and works like an ox gets so much medical attention for a 150kph thump against a wall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cesmj5PkmWg

This IMO happened at a similar speed and at a similar angle...and bear in mind that this a 2005 car...10 years of saftey in an F1 car should make this kind of incident unnoticable to an F1 driver.

Real mature downvote without a good remark. Carbon fiber is conductive, an ERS faliure has so much potential energy to release that its insane and trust me, when you're that close to the ground in an F1 car, electricity will find a way. Hell, all it would take to shock him would be that the car hit the track (bottom out) and voila. A ground for the ERS energy. And Macca not wishing to put the car out again despite minimal, repairable damage? Not wanting to zap Jenson as well? Bad press for all this eco crap that's been pushed into the cars...bad, bad press.

A 150kph nudge into a wall did not cause him to need a helicopter intervention. Unless he suddenly got ebola or something.

[Moose]

For those of you claiming 30g is not much - 25g (even instantaneously) is usually enough to render a human unconscious. 50g is usually enough to cause serious injury (and will often cause death), 100g is basically impossible to survive.

30g is a significant impact.

[PhillipM]

If 50g is likely to kill, and '100g is impossible to survive', why do we have records of well over 200g being survived?

It's only a significant impact if it's experienced for a significant amount of time, with no crumple zone, the exposure time is likely to have been brief. It's also probably lateral or axial loading, which the body is pretty good at dealing with.