Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

[PhillipM]

However, that drag could be offset by smaller wings, because the shrunk sidepods have made more efficient downforce generation possible, so it doesn't mean it's a draggy car...we also don't know how much of the shrinkage is down to a smaller gearbox install, the Honda engine not minding running hotter which makes the radiators more efficient, which means you can get away with less air throughput and smaller sidepods anyway, etc, etc, there are so many variables there that we just don't known enough of to even make an educated guess.

If you can look at that car and magically say it's more draggy, you're either an aero god that F1 missed, or just peddling speculation based on so many unknown factors that it needs to come with a mountain of salt

[ringo]

that thing about the engine running hotter operating temperature would be marginal.
Ok, let's just simply say I will bet it will be more draggy with the same size wings compared to the others.
For simplicity as well and to reduce arguments, I am going solely off the carbon copy redbull shape.

[dr_cooke]

I just can't believe that a company like Honda has released an engine without thorough dyno testing. Not even a 25 cc chainsaw motor. Must be some kind of misunderstanding

[f1rules]

they(Honda) left the sport as loosers and they are really not making a good impression at the moment, incredible they did not put more effort

[Coefficient]

that thing about the engine running hotter operating temperature would be marginal.
Ok, let's just simply say I will bet it will be more draggy with the same size wings compared to the others.
For simplicity as well and to reduce arguments, I am going solely off the carbon copy redbull shape.

Oh yeah, that Red Bull that was so dragging it won at Monza.

[frosty125]

For the fans of the topic: another nice pic of the emptiness at the rear
http://www.formule1.nl/media/uploads/me ... 6663.4.jpg
http://www.formule1.nl/media/uploads/me ... 6663.4.jpg

This is a very nice high res photo. I was wondering if anyone with aerodynamic knowledge would be able to shed some light on the floor structures. As you can see there is a lot of free space between the floor and the gearbox, I wonder if this has something to maintaining flow over the floor during yaw.

[Alexgtt]

I just can't believe that a company like Honda has released an engine without thorough dyno testing. Not even a 25 cc chainsaw motor. Must be some kind of misunderstanding

Of course its a misunderstanding. They have dozens of dynos at the F1 engine factory.

When are people going to realise its testing. There is nothing like the environment in the back of the car, on track. Things will fail that wouldn't in 1,000 hours on a dyno.

[turbof1]

I just can't believe that a company like Honda has released an engine without thorough dyno testing. Not even a 25 cc chainsaw motor. Must be some kind of misunderstanding

Of course its a misunderstanding. They have dozens of dynos at the F1 engine factory.

When are people going to realise its testing. There is nothing like the environment in the back of the car, on track. Things will fail that wouldn't in 1,000 hours on a dyno.

One shouldn't forget that the engine is a STRUCTURAL part of the car. It gives rigidity to it. That also means that the engine has to endure much more since forces applied on the car directly are also directly applied on the engine.

[ian_s]

I've never heard of a dyno that can replicate the forces and vibration that the PU in an F1 car has to live with. Renault made a very similar mistake last year.

[acosmichippo]

Sorry if this is taking the discussion off-topic, but how do you guys think Mercedes developed such a reliable 2014 engine before any testing?

[turbof1]

Sorry if this is taking the discussion off-topic, but how do you guys think Mercedes developed such a reliable 2014 engine before any testing?

Probably by looking more at the data of how forces work at their V8, then extrapolating that correctly to the PU. And a much longer R&D period, which leads to less variables being omitted.

Also comes down to having the right people with the right experience in your company.

Also, a lot of issues stem from miscommunications between software and hardware. Again looks like Mercedes just put more effort into developing the software.

That is by no means criticism to Honda. One shouldn't forget the small time frame Honda had to develop their PU. Less time means more things risk to be underdeveloped and more variables are going to be omitted.

[Alexgtt]

Sorry if this is taking the discussion off-topic, but how do you guys think Mercedes developed such a reliable 2014 engine before any testing?

Probably by looking more at the data of how forces work at their V8, then extrapolating that correctly to the PU. And a much longer R&D period, which leads to less variables being omitted.

Also comes down to having the right people with the right experience in your company.

Also, a lot of issues stem from miscommunications between software and hardware. Again looks like Mercedes just put more effort into developing the software.

That is by no means criticism to Honda. One shouldn't forget the small time frame Honda had to develop their PU. Less time means more things risk to be underdeveloped and more variables are going to be omitted.

Agreed and time is the real key here. Merc have been known to be developing the motor from a very early point with enormous resources. They also had their issues last year but not the early niggles in the same way.

In fact, the more I look back the more impressed I am with Ferrari's PU. The problem might be better approached the other way round with a conservative start ramping up the development.

[Mattchu]

I know this may sound silly and i`m not sure if the tech regs allow it but couldn`t Honda have set up some kind of rig which in part would give some of stresses that they knew the engine was going to endure?
Either way they will get it right sooner rather than later, allthough it probably depends on the amount of tokens they get as to how fast they can move it forward and at what stage the`re up to on February 28th.
Is it an average of what the other 3 manufacturers have used? So if Renault have used 10, Merc have used 8 and Ferarri 12 then Honda can use 10.
Also does this start after the first race has been run, i haven`t got a clue as to the engine regs this year, last year they had a homologation date and this year there isn`t one as far as i know! (scrub that, found out ... i think)

Saying that iv`e just read a great article which explains some of it vet well

Code: Select all

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/01/20/making-sense-f1s-engine-rules-2015/

Apologies if this isn`t allowed to be posted, please remove it if it`s against any rules/etiquette

[Moose]

Is it an average of what the other 3 manufacturers have used? So if Renault have used 10, Merc have used 8 and Ferarri 12 then Honda can use 10.

No, it's the average of what the other teams have not used.

[ian_s]

I know this may sound silly and i`m not sure if the tech regs allow it but couldn`t Honda have set up some kind of rig which in part would give some of stresses that they knew the engine was going to endure?

that still wouldn't put g-force stresses on some of the internal moving components. it also wouldnt show up what would happen on a rubber seal if it undergoes 3g of lateral load. its possible that the seal no longer seals. or after prolonged forces cause the seal to eventually deform enough to cause a failure. none of this would be possible on a dyno.

i'm fairly sure that mercedes had their PU running in a mule car long before it ever ran in an F1 car.