Sauber F1 Team 2015

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efuloni
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Some news and comments about it:

a) Button says its unfair that Sauber claims safety and that this is not an issue if vdG drives this weekend.
b) Massa says its 'very sad' that this happens before the first GP and that Sauber signed 'three drivers for two cars'.
c) Suport group behind Nasr says that the complexity of the contract and the investiment that has already been done make sure that he will race the entire season for Sauber (but i bet ERI's staff will say the same).
d) Sauber would be considering not to race this weekend. If Manor do it too, then its 16 cars, 4 of them being McLaren and FI, and they dont seem to be in a competitive level. That would be a great a way of starting the season, congrats, Bernie ¬¬'.

bill shoe
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Sauber have not gone in front of any court or arbitration hearing and stated something to the effect of: “We can’t comply with GVDG’s contract because we signed three driver contracts for two cars”. Until/unless Sauber do this, the court can only order them to comply with the petitioner’s (GVDG’s) contract. The other driver contracts have not been contested or even brought up by GVDG.

If Sauber states they signed three contracts for two seats, then the court can begin to consider what to do with Sauber at that point. However, Sauber can’t make that statement because this would be admitting to simple fraud in court.

Everyone from judges on down understands the overall situation, but until/unless Sauber admits to the underlying problem it makes no sense to try and address the symptoms.

It’s like a 12-step program for alcoholics: The first step is to clearly and unambiguously state the problem. I think many people in this thread are intellectually running around trying to find solutions for Sauber which is like step 8 or 10, but Sauber can’t be helped yet because they haven’t done step 1.

The FIA Superlicense paperwork won’t save Sauber at this point. In order for Sauber to use this as an excuse they would logically have to first do “step 1” and state the contractual problem. Otherwise, it makes no sense why the paperwork could not be completed.

Given their legal liability in doing step 1, it’s possible that Sauber management will never be able to do step 1, therefore they will have to depart Australia and leave the team equipment behind.

bill shoe
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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FYI, as a separate issue, the FIA contracts recognition board was envisioned as providing clarity to potential disputes between teams (like Honda vs Williams regarding Button’s services a few years ago). The board was not envisioned as providing clarity to disputes between a team and driver (do I have a drive with you?). Therefore it has no mechanism to address the current issue. They can only say “There is no situation with two or more teams disputing who has a valid contract with GVDG”.

kptaylor
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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And we're still forgetting that SUT may also have a valid contract that has not yet worked its way through the arbitration/courts process...

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Phil
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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bill shoe wrote:If Sauber states they signed three contracts for two seats, then the court can begin to consider what to do with Sauber at that point. However, Sauber can’t make that statement because this would be admitting to simple fraud in court.
Correct. I do believe though that those contracts are quite a bit complex, especially since they are effectively for a pay driver. The first problem I see is that Sauber lost the first trial, that being the one in Geneva in front of the Swiss Arbitration Court. There VdG made the case that clauses that were activated within his 2014 contract promoted him into a race seat for 2015 and thus should be entitled to race. The court looked at what was probably a big contractual mess and at the end of it, the judge sided with him.

I could well imagine that well through 2014, VdG was perhaps confident that he would be formally named a race driver for 2015 as was planned - only to find out that 'at the last minute', Nasr and Ericsson were revealed. That then prompted the charges he brought forward. Sauber on the other hand, either unaware or fully aware, felt that they didn't have a contract with VdG, but that the contract was with his backers and not explicitly with him.

There are some reports being mentioned that Sauber (or Monisha) knew that there could be trial concerning VdG, but it was only after the Swiss Arbitration Court ruled in VdG favour that they realized it was going to be serious. I'm quite sure they never believed this would actually happen. Ever since then, it's been a domino effect. I'm not sure, but I think Sauber is trying desperately to prolong anything that would make them run VdG this weekend (as that would get them into trouble with their other two drivers who have made substantial financial investments). They also need to clean up the mess in front of the arbitration court in Geneva. If they manage to appeal that verdict with success, all the other verdicts should go away. The only question is; how and when does that appeal proceed? How long will it take? If they get to drive in Australia with both Nasr and Ericsson because the super licence isn't ready/completed for VdG, will this play into Saubers hands in their fight against VdG? What will happen in Malaysia?
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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FW17
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Phil wrote:
bill shoe wrote:If Sauber states they signed three contracts for two seats, then the court can begin to consider what to do with Sauber at that point. However, Sauber can’t make that statement because this would be admitting to simple fraud in court.
Correct.
Wrong
Mark Surer who drove for Arrows and Brabham in the eighties, met Giedo van der Garde in a hotel elevator before the Austin GP, he asked the Dutchman if it wasn’t a bit early yet to leave the track and head back for some Z’s, but VdG answered: “I just got an SMS that I’m fired. I need to call a lawyer.”

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TheRMVR
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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gilgen wrote:
nokivasara wrote:This whole mess seems quite fitting for the modern farce called Formula1, there's absolutely no winners in this #-o

The long term effects are even worse, Van der Garde will never get a seat in a better team after this (possibly not before either, he's not the next Senna tbh). I quess it's his sponsors that are driving this forward with their own money as the #1 reason, not to actually get VDG to drive the Sauber.

Maybe Sauber will fold and get bought by Honda as a junior team :wtf:
His father in law is his sponsor via the McGregor brand label. The aim seems to be to destroy Sauber and to create a new team called McGregor. After all, what driver in his right mind would go to the steps that Van Dr Garde has gone, to try and hold on to his seat? Especially as you say...he is no Senna, and not even a Maldonado, or a Magnussen.
"After all, what driver in his right mind would go to the steps that Van Dr Garde has gone, to try and hold on to his seat?"

I am so glad he did. Finally somebody stands up. How many decades have drivers been screwed by teams? How many times haven't we heared a driver say: Im not worried, I have a contract. Only to be screwed out of it later. It seemed that in F1 a contract wasn't worth much. Finally someone is standing up against these malicious practices. Finally someone isn't willing to be screwed by his (former) team. It is irrelevant that he isn't a Senna, Maldonado or Magnussen, that is completely missing the point. Hulkenberg recently got screwed by this team, so was Sutil, and Van der Garde.. He is the first to actually do something about it. I can't see why you would hold this against him instead of applauding the precedent he is setting. Every (backfield) team is watching this ensue and think twice before casually handing out contracts in the future.

I think all of us should be applauding his effords, regardless of his motives, quality as a racing driver or his personality. He is standing up against a malicous practice that has become institutionalized in Formula 1. Most of the paddock are behind him, we should be too.

Jonnycraig
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Latest reports in Dutch media are that as of now Sauber have made no effort to accommodate VDG. They also report nobody within the team can get hold of Kalterborn.

marcush.
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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ou cannot force a Driver to drive for a Team he does not want to drive for ...it always got sorted somehow and it was always sorted with the help of Bernie ...
Just think Jenson Button,Jean Alesi and others .
Now we have the Problem of a Driver demanding a seat the Team does not want to give him .Sure Sauber will do everything to let him shine....
Dream on .
There is always the case of a severely detoriated relationship ..And I believe a Settlement is the only sensible solution here.Nevertheless I ´d think van der Garde and his father in law are out there to demonstrate their power .Bad for Sauber and very bad they did not realise just how dangerous their recent activities concerning Driver contracts was.
Unfortunatelly if this is happening Sauber will go bust quickly .None of the lead figures will be happy in a ship taken over by some flying dutchmen ...

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turbof1
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Not even the team itself can reach Kaltenborn?

I don't think Peter Sauber can ignore the current events much longer. He NEEDS to come back and take charge of the team.

@Marcush: I can understand you there, but the matter at hand is that Sauber created this situation on their own. Just because you are the team does not give you juristicial rights to throw contracted drivers out for whatever reason it pleases you.

Infact, this situation was predicted by Adam Cooper, before even charges were filed in Switzerland:
http://adamcooperf1.com/2014/11/06/kalt ... ract-saga/

Sure enough you can say that vd Garde is not showing empathy, but why should he anyhow for the team that ousted him?

Of course Sauber is not going to run him, that speaks for itself. It's either naivity from vd Garde or he is out on revenge.
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jericho
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Just read it could be a part of a hostile takeover'. Let's see how the courtcase goes
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2015/03 ... ther-view/

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Phil
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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TheRMVR wrote:I am so glad he did. Finally somebody stands up. How many decades have drivers been screwed by teams? How many times haven't we heared a driver say: Im not worried, I have a contract. Only to be screwed out of it later. It seemed that in F1 a contract wasn't worth much.
Technically yes. What you are effectively saying is no different where every contract is concerned - even the ones we sign outside the world of F1. A contract is a contract - a signed document by at least two parties that give both some security in what they have agreed upon. In pretty much every case, it's a simple exchange of interests of supply & demand. In the sense of sport, it becomes a bit stranger because there is some sense of entitlement, because we are talking about people competing in an event.

However, as I earlier stated; this is a team-sport. While most fans only care about the drivers, with perhaps a second interest in the team that is letting them drive, the matter of fact is that behind these drivers are big teams with hundreds of employees. There are various factors that can lead to an employer/employee relationship breaking down to the point it is no longer possible to continue what was agreed upon. Sometimes this happens solely on one side. For cases like these, you usually have clauses in contracts that handle what exactly happens when a contract is terminated prematurely or breached. In the case of F1, this should be handled as form of compensation, usually financially. The amount of [financial] compensation perhaps is rather complex as it varies from driver to driver, contract to contract, as the damage to one is not equal. If this happens and the driver is good - chances are he will find employment at a different team.

Now, as I said before, I personally think its a very dangerous precedent for a court to *force* a team to run a particular driver. Because essentially, nothing and no-one is bigger than the team. No good can come of having a court decide who should sit in the race seat if that individual isn't wanted by the team - as hard as it is. IMO the court should force a team to pay damages and compensation it deems worthy if a contract is terminated unjustly - and in the case of Sauber; if they go into administration because they can't pay those fees, so be it. In that sense, I'm not exactly against what VdG is doing (except for alterior motives if they prove to be true), but more critical of how the courts are handling the situation.

Lastly, it's been said before, but I'll just say it again; If Sauber had not created this 'mess' by signing Nasr and Ericsson and honoured an agreement with VdG, chances are high that they may not have made the 2015 grid - and VdG, as much as we may want to applaud him for taking these steps - would not have had a race seat to challenge, nor any money he or his backers may have invested...

So, on the basis of it - yes, I agree that people in general should stand for their rights - even F1 drivers. But we should not ignore what unfortunate circumstances played a big role in how this court case came about.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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ChrisM40
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Its very simple really. VdG isnt an employee of Sauber, he is a customer. He paid them for a service, namely the drive, and they failed to provide that service. Sure its a service that comes with more complicated T&Cs than most, but its a service nonetheless.

Sauber failed to provide that service after agreeing to, its not that rare for a court to force a service provider to provide a service when they failed to, if they are capable. The other option, compensation, not just the cost of the service, but also of the consequences of not providing that service.

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Sniffit
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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TheRMVR wrote:
gilgen wrote:
nokivasara wrote:This whole mess seems quite fitting for the modern farce called Formula1, there's absolutely no winners in this #-o

The long term effects are even worse, Van der Garde will never get a seat in a better team after this (possibly not before either, he's not the next Senna tbh). I quess it's his sponsors that are driving this forward with their own money as the #1 reason, not to actually get VDG to drive the Sauber.

Maybe Sauber will fold and get bought by Honda as a junior team :wtf:
His father in law is his sponsor via the McGregor brand label. The aim seems to be to destroy Sauber and to create a new team called McGregor. After all, what driver in his right mind would go to the steps that Van Dr Garde has gone, to try and hold on to his seat? Especially as you say...he is no Senna, and not even a Maldonado, or a Magnussen.
"After all, what driver in his right mind would go to the steps that Van Dr Garde has gone, to try and hold on to his seat?"

I am so glad he did. Finally somebody stands up. How many decades have drivers been screwed by teams? How many times haven't we heared a driver say: Im not worried, I have a contract. Only to be screwed out of it later. It seemed that in F1 a contract wasn't worth much. Finally someone is standing up against these malicious practices. Finally someone isn't willing to be screwed by his (former) team. It is irrelevant that he isn't a Senna, Maldonado or Magnussen, that is completely missing the point. Hulkenberg recently got screwed by this team, so was Sutil, and Van der Garde.. He is the first to actually do something about it. I can't see why you would hold this against him instead of applauding the precedent he is setting. Every (backfield) team is watching this ensue and think twice before casually handing out contracts in the future.

I think all of us should be applauding his effords, regardless of his motives, quality as a racing driver or his personality. He is standing up against a malicous practice that has become institutionalized in Formula 1. Most of the paddock are behind him, we should be too.
TBH that will only end up in drivers getting contracts per race. Was vdG treated unfairly? Maybe, perhaps, possibly, likely? Does it really matter? Nope, he's an athlete a sports man and to be frank not really a super star either. He is not even the caliber (if such a comparison can be made) of Steven Baertschi, Jake Gardiner or Gael Kakuta.

If he gets to drive he should be thankful, he is a mediocre driver (as formula 1 drivers go). Do we really want to see drivers of Sennas, Schumachers or Fittipaldis early in their career live in a world were their seat the next week depend on how they perform this week?
What if Kvyatt had been benched and/or gotten rid of after his crash at last years Aussi GP?

The teams need to be able to have some leeway with the drivers, specially the ones that does not belong in the top. If teams can be treated by drivers like the avg american surgeon by people who feel wronged no chances will ever be taken.

Letting courts settle things that should be dealt with in-house sets a dangerous precedent, not saying that the fault lies with vdG but rather the series or FIA who should have put a gag on him months ago.

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TheRMVR
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Phil wrote:
TheRMVR wrote:I am so glad he did. Finally somebody stands up. How many decades have drivers been screwed by teams? How many times haven't we heared a driver say: Im not worried, I have a contract. Only to be screwed out of it later. It seemed that in F1 a contract wasn't worth much.



Now, as I said before, I personally think its a very dangerous precedent for a court to *force* a team to run a particular driver. Because essentially, nothing and no-one is bigger than the team. No good can come of having a court decide who should sit in the race seat if that individual isn't wanted by the team - as hard as it is. IMO the court should force a team to pay damages and compensation it deems worthy if a contract is terminated unjustly - and in the case of Sauber; if they go into administration because they can't pay those fees, so be it. In that sense, I'm not exactly against what VdG is doing (except for alterior motives if they prove to be true), but more critical of how the courts are handling the situation.

Lastly, it's been said before, but I'll just say it again; If Sauber had not created this 'mess' by signing Nasr and Ericsson and honoured an agreement with VdG, chances are high that they may not have made the 2015 grid - and VdG, as much as we may want to applaud him for taking these steps - would not have had a race seat to challenge, nor any money he or his backers may have invested...

So, on the basis of it - yes, I agree that people in general should stand for their rights - even F1 drivers. But we should not ignore what unfortunate circumstances played a big role in how this court case came about.

1. The judge is not forcing Sauber to do anything, and it is certainly not setting a precedent. The judge only confirms VDG has a legal and binding contract. It will most likely have a clause and a sum to pay him and his financial backers to get out of it. Thats also why Sauber had to prepare a list of assets, for the VDG team to claim those as a way of compensation. The court is not forcing Sauber to run VDG, they clearly have the option to pay him off. The Australian court is only confirming the earlier decision by the Swiss court in Geneva that also came to the same conclusion.

2. "nothing and no-one is bigger than the team" / "if that individual isn't wanted by the team"
What you are saying here basically is that it is ok not to honour a contract if it might harm the team and/or the if the team changes its mind and can find someone else who is better its fine to one-sidedly terminate a contract. Luckily the reality doesn't work that way.

3. "If Sauber had not created this 'mess' by signing Nasr and Ericsson and honoured an agreement with VdG, chances are high that they may not have made the 2015 grid". So, wait, you're saying, they had to create this mess to be able to start at the grid this year?? That is completely and utterly ridiculous. That is like saying, we had to commit fraud or steal money to keep our business afloat. That Sauber found themselves in dire straits does not justify in any way shape or form what they have done to Sutil and VDG. It is absolutely absurd that you would even suggest this. Lets not forget that they still have a binding 2-year contract with Sutil. So in essence they have 4 drivers for 2 seats. And if I remember correctly they still owe Hulkenberg money...

I think it is time to stop blaming 'unfortunate circumstances' as you put it, for the misery Sauber is in. Kaltenborn created this misery and is responsible for it. I understand you're Swiss, but as sympathetic as this team once was, it is very much to blame for the mess they're in.