Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren

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bhall
bhall
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I agree with the FIA in that there's no real way to know whether or not McLaren used Ferrari's intellectual property in the development of their cars. In that regard, the FIA was correct in not meting out a penalty that would affect the World Championship.

However, McLaren should have been penalized, perhaps by very heavy fines, for what has happened. It was, after all, their own chief designer who was in possession of highly confidential technical documents from a rival team.

Even if McLaren did not use the documents for their own gain - though I'm sure those documents came into play during the whole "movable floor" saga - they should still be punished for the actions of a senior member of their team, because they are responsible for the actions of everyone associated with their team, even if it's only to send a message to others that this sort of thing will not be tolerated in the future.

What the FIA has done is, in effect, tell teams that having another team's I.P. is bad, but not bad enough to warrant any sort of punitive action. It's a dangerous message to send.

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Militia Est Vita
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pRo wrote:
Tifoso wrote:Most F1 fans?
Yes. Read the posts above.

You didn't answer my question though. What would've been a result you were happy with, as a F1 fan?
Well we have heard Bernie's comments about Ferrari being 70% of the f1 cake. So are we talking f1 furious fans or Ferrari (vast majority of f1 fans) furios fans? wich would make more sense of the outcome of polls and or posts IMO.
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy --- we don't need. - Tyler Durden - Fight Club.

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pRo
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bhallg2k wrote:I'm sure those documents came into play during the whole "movable floor" saga
This is actually one of the most hilarious parts of the whole fuss.

Team 1 cheats in a way that doesn't show in test
Team 2 finds it out and tells FIA, who clarify it's not ok and changes the test
Team 1 nags that Team 2 found out they were cheating
Team 1 demands that Team 2 must be punished for revealing their cheating

Am I really the only one who thinks this is funny? Ferrari fans don't have to answer this one. ;)

they should still be punished for the actions of a senior member of their team, because they are responsible for the actions of everyone associated with their team
Well. Remember who made this whole thing possible in the first place? And he is a senior member of what team? Should he be punished for causing this whole mess? And the team too, cause they are responsible for the actions of everyone associated with their team?

Which is worse, stealing the documents, or receiving them? Maybe FIA should remove all points from both teams? ;)
Formula 1, 57, died Thursday, Sept. 13, 2007
Born May 13, 1950, in Silverstone, United Kingdom
Will be held in the hearts of millions forever
Rest In Peace, we will not forget you

ginsu
ginsu
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Which is worse, stealing the documents, or receiving them? Maybe FIA should remove all points from both teams?
Obviously the only people that could've benefited from this are McLaren. I don't see how Ferrari can benefit from having their Intellectual Property stolen from them.
I'm sure those documents came into play during the whole "movable floor" saga
I agree, and McLaren clearly benefited from getting the focus on movable floors. Had Stepney never seen those documents, would McLaren have any clue about Ferrari's floor?
Well. Remember who made this whole thing possible in the first place? And he is a senior member of what team? Should he be punished for causing this whole mess? And the team too, cause they are responsible for the actions of everyone associated with their team?
The question is really whether McLaren benefited from this information. I think it's pretty clear that they did. I think the removal of the viking horns and their new rear wing look exactly like what Ferrari have. If anything. The McLaren has become more like a Ferrari than vice versa. This suggest to me that McLaren have benefited at the expense of Ferrari.
I love to love Senna.

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Rob W
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GTO wrote:IMO...total BS!...

McL has a 780-page dossier of Ferrari information & within a few days the FIA conclude that there was insufficient evidence to suggest the McL made use of stolen Ferrari secrets.

Typical FIA inconsistancy...
McLaren didn't have it, Mike Coulghan did. It would seem McLaren have been successful in painting Coulghan as a rogue who was not acting for or within the team at the time (I said days ago this would be their highest chance path for a defense) and that they're as angry about this as Ferrari.

Moreso (from a talk I had with someone earlier today from an F1 team) there is an element amongst a few teams of annoyance at Ferrari's years of bickering when they're not destroying all other teams on the track but then getting away with plenty of farcical things themselves.

Rob W
Last edited by Rob W on 27 Jul 2007, 01:22, edited 1 time in total.

bhall
bhall
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pRo wrote:
bhallg2k wrote:I'm sure those documents came into play during the whole "movable floor" saga
This is actually one of the most hilarious parts of the whole fuss.

Team 1 cheats in a way that doesn't show in test
Team 2 finds it out and tells FIA, who clarify it's not ok and changes the test
Team 1 nags that Team 2 found out they were cheating
Team 1 demands that Team 2 must be punished for revealing their cheating

Am I really the only one who thinks this is funny? Ferrari fans don't have to answer this one. ;)
If anything passes Whiting's scrutinizing (which the floor did), it's not cheating. Simple answer. :D

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Rob W
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pRo wrote:Team 1 cheats in a way that doesn't show in test
Team 2 finds it out and tells FIA, who clarify it's not ok and changes the test
Team 1 nags that Team 2 found out they were cheating
Team 1 demands that Team 2 must be punished for revealing their cheating

Am I really the only one who thinks this is funny? Ferrari fans don't have to answer this one. ;)
I agree.. I made this point a few days ago - pretty amusing, when you remove all of the emotion/side-issues to think that a team is actually complaining about being outed for 'bending' the rules. You'd think the best action would be to fix the design and keep your head down and out of the media.

Rob W

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pRo
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ginsu wrote:I don't see how Ferrari can benefit from having their Intellectual Property stolen from them.
Getting their worst rival banned for a season or two? :lol:
Formula 1, 57, died Thursday, Sept. 13, 2007
Born May 13, 1950, in Silverstone, United Kingdom
Will be held in the hearts of millions forever
Rest In Peace, we will not forget you

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Rob W
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As I understand it, McLaren would have been pretty comfortable in showing the FIA/WMC their progressive plans of this year's car. I say it would be relatively easy to disprove the idea that they'd suddenly implemented another team's design into a part of the car. Likewise, it would pretty clear to a technical expert if they had the progressive designs right next to each other to confirm any major design 'forks'.

I believe McLaren, as much as others may not support them, are a fair team and that Dennis/Haug would be furious that they've been painted as having being part of this. I would be money they've had investigators do forensics on every computer, internet account, phone etc in addition to the home computers and travel history of their employees.

Ferrari have every right to be annoyed in this saga and the end result, but Stepney seems to be their gripe. It's just they can't really do anything to him which will get back anything 'significant'.

I think Coulghan and Stepney are shortly due to be banned from F1 - in which case a few more skeletons will start fallout of various closets.

(Do I dare wonder if Honda will make significant random improvements in the near future? :shock: )

Rob W

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checkered
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All quotes from the FIA statement, maybe you can comment on some notions:
An extraordinary meeting of the World Motor Sport Council was held in Paris on 26 July, 2007. The following decision was taken:

The WMSC is satisfied that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes was in possession of confidential Ferrari information and is therefore in breach of article 151c of the International Sporting Code. However, there is insufficient evidence that this information was used in such a way as to interfere improperly with the FIA Formula One World Championship. We therefore impose no penalty.
The breach of article 151c might have interfered with the FIA Formula One World Championship, but not improperly in a demonstratable fashion? That wording is descriptive of a fine line indeed. Section 151c (as explained in an earlier link I provided) means that "any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interest of motor sports generally" is in breach of the rules. Is it fair to ask how fulfilling that criteria, in itself, could not be improper by definition? Does making an inquiry about the method of an FIA administered test with regard to certain design propositions, based on another team's intellectual property without their explicit knowledge, constitute "proper fraudulent conduct" or a "proper prejudicial act"?
But if it is found in the future that the Ferrari information has been used to the detriment of the championship, we reserve the right to invite Vodafone McLaren Mercedes back in front of the WMSC where it will face the possibility of exclusion from not only the 2007 championship but also the 2008 championship.
A clever wording, in my humble opinion, as this recognizes that a whole plethora of Ferrari design ideas and tactics has been potentially available to McLaren, and if not directly, then at the very least by the intellect, memory and understanding of Coughlan for a significant amount of time. This will prohibit the team from adopting even remotely similar approaches to Ferrari this year, for the fear of demonstratably using the information in the development of their car. The period (covering next season, too) is likely to be long enough in F1 terms of technical advances. No specifics on the scrutiny McLaren will face to prove the designs remain 100% their own, hopefully enforcement isn't expected to happen by Ferrari exercising a form of "proper fraudulent conduct"?
The WMSC will also invite Mr Stepney and Mr Coughlan to show reason why they should not be banned from international motor sport for a lengthy period and the WMSC has delegated authority to deal with this matter to the legal department of the FIA.
Which F1 team would venture to hire them in the short term and in what capacity? I was and am troubled by individuals facing several procedures and punitive ramifications (self regulatory, judicial) resulting from the same action. There's little or no benefit in this for anyone involved as far as I can see and it seems disproportional ... condemn the action, then move on. McLaren was spared of a collective punishment, at least provisionally. For full co-operation and disclosure I wouldn't mind seeing some of that leniency afforded to Mr Stepney and Mr Coughlan also.

Also, I was left with the impression that Ferrari overplayed its hand a bit ... they were very specific in how they saw their interests being hurt and pushed those specific points to the WMSC in what appeared to be a bit of a hurry. Maybe a more passive approach would've resulted in an actual punishment imposed ... but to me, the available range of those is actually quite unappealing. If it was up to me, perhaps I wouldn't award the WCC title this year at all, or allocate part of the "success money" generally available to these teams to investigating how to simplify dealing with intellectual property and employment contracts within F1.

Meanwhile I'm content to leave the two teams fighting it out on the track, trusting that they'll be able to gather themselves from this and provide us a good show.

waynes
waynes
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checkered wrote:
Meanwhile I'm content to leave the two teams fighting it out on the track, trusting that they'll be able to gather themselves from this and provide us a good show.
and hopefully Massa will get blown away into the weeds and Kimi will win the world championship finally

as for Alonso well, gone down in my estimation as a man, still a good driver (i dont use great as thats reserved for Mr A Senna Da Silva)

DaveKillens
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GTO wrote:IMO...total BS! The "guilty verdict for possession of confidential documents & information belonging to Ferrari should have carried a punishment regardless of whether there was evidence that McLaren had benefited from the information."
I'm a pretty big guy, 6' 2" and 240 lbs. I also have a penis but have never commited, or been charged with rape. Just because you have the ability doesn't mean you are guilty.

I'm a closet Ferrari fan, so I have no interest in seeing them lose, I just want them to succeed fair and square.

As an F1 fan, I'm hoping that this whole sordid affair fades into the past, because it's a dark chapter in the history of what I consider one of the finest sports in existence. It's a shame that both Ferrari and McLaren have disgruntled employees, this is an indicator both teams have dubious management practices. I'm also appalled on Ferrari's agressive position, doing everything they can away from the track to destroy their immediate competitors just to win a title.

waynes
waynes
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DaveKillens wrote:I'm a closet Ferrari fan
no offence meant but, with that avatar "no ---" :D

only wish i was alive to see the great gilles race :(

deluge
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I must be simple, but here's my take:

1. I'm glad the championship will be determined on the track and not the boardroom.

2. Stepney and Coughlin were both unhappy and that's the reason they were sharring Ferrari data. They want to work somewhere else and saw their partnership as marketable fodder.

3. Most don't rate Frye, but he does know what --- smells like.

4. The FIA and Bernie just want the smell of --- to go away.

And, so do I.
If I knew I was going to live this long, I would have taken better care of myself.

Giblet
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Now Todt is pissed the Mclaren is getting no penalty.

If one person in the Mclaren team is responsible, and the whole team punished, then shouldn't the fact that one person from Ferarri supplied the documents be as big a problem?

Both teams should be leavied fines/punishment under the logic he presents.