Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[FW17]

Ferrari is not a good example; they have had such a bad year that they are acting all +ve right now to show that what ever culling they did last year was for the good.

They have no chance against Merc this year.

The difference between Ferrari and Redbull are that one is willing to write off a season or two while the other has no belief in their partner to bridge the gap.

The FIA is kind of lost with this power unit as it does not know what to do to cut the performance as it was the case in the past.

[Manoah2u]

I wonder, when Mercedes and Ferrari were having their posteriors handed to them by Red Bull from 2010 to 2013, was there ever such an outcry regarding Mercedes and Ferrari's inability to develop Aero to Red Bull's standard?

People always do forget things so quickly.
There were plenty of discussions about aero rules during this time and in quite a few cases where RBR's aero got cut down mid-season because Ferrari, Mercedes , ... complained about RBR's aero package.

I'm not defending the kind of statements Horner issued. I really dislike these political games in F1, but it's not like RB has done something no one has ever done before.

Ferrari has done this since forever using their "Without Ferrari there's no F1" argument whenever they want something done or changed and Mercedes have more than once stated (during their bitter first years) that they might leave F1 if they're not successful within a short time.

So those threats are nothing new when big teams can't catch their opponents on their own.

the complaints were because red bull was clearly running a illegal aero package, which they had cleverly made pass any possible test thrown at them because of a smart way the 'flexy wings' would only flex under certain circumstances, and not just simply by putting weight on them [ though they had to adapt ].

There is a huge difference in winning by racing a generally illegal vehicle versus simply have been doing a mighty better job. Vettel and RedBull won 4 titles in a row, they should stop complaining they aren't able to win a title 2 years after because they have a lousy engine. Their problem is not mercedes, their problem is Renault has done a crap job, and they did it again. Ferrari on the contrary did a mediocre job last year, but has done an absolute marvellous job and improved lightyears.

Red Bull has nobody to blame but themselves. They shot themself in the foot on multiple ways.
The most important one to piss off Renault by doing their 'infiniti-trick'. Renault was outspokenly not amused and fairly unimpressed by the then reigning champions choice to slam infinity on the vehicles. Stupid move, imho, because what we're seeing now is Toro Rosso whom did not complain is having a much better day than RedBull.

Last year the RBR camp also were very outspoken on their dissatisfaction with Renault's powerplant. Again, stupid move because it cools down relationships quite significantly, and it's clear as day the relationship has gone down the sink.

It seems like Renault wants more stake in Toro Rosso or perhaps even buy them out. That means Toro Rosso becomes an OEM/Works team. Red Bull could have been the works team but they ruined their chances it seems. So now Toro Rosso already is having a better day compared to RBR and they're having none of RBR's issues.

Fact is Renault is having just 2 teams on the grid right now; Toro Rosso and RedBull. Unfortunately Verstappen had a DNF too, and it was a engine failure, though it did not generally look like something that was because of a bad engine though.

It's complete BS and very low to simply declare to leave F1 because the tides are against you for a while. With their input, Williams, Lotus, Sauber, etc would have been gone long ago. Rediculous!

If RedBull see no future in Renault, and they can't get a Merc, Ferrari or Honda engine - obviously because they've thrown in their own windows AND they want to be some sort of works team, but all have their works outfits already [AMG, Scuderia, Mclaren] then there is one option left; another manufacturer.

BMW, Audi/VW/Porsche/Lamborghini, Toyota, Cosworth, Ford, all possible new engines. Or the return of non-industry engines like Ilmor [remember Ilmor, Mecachrome, Asiatech, Fondmetal, etc.]. Why not go for such an option?

Wolff put it quite clearly; go to Jerusalem to the wall. If Mercedes can, if Ferrari can, why can't Renault? The matter of fact, toro rosso seemed to fair well so it's seemingly just 'red bull''s own failure. They should be happy Mclaren is having issues with Honda, if they did not have these extreme issues, they could have beaten them having them in even a less positive position.

just get to work! stop the whining and do your job. Newey is not almighty, RedBull is not canon, and there are plenty more fish in the sea.

[bdr529]

1) So far I have read nothing to suggest that Ferrari's PU is as good as the Mercedes one. In fact nothing about it that it is even close.

Nasr in 5th position with chassis almost the same as 2014 season is not enough?

Not that 5th place wasn't a great accomplishment, there were a few extra factors that lead to Nasr getting up that high
He gained 2 spots in the first two corners that had noting to do with his Ferrari engine. plus Bottas missing the race gave him another spot

[bdr529]

the complaints were because red bull was clearly running a illegal aero package, which they had cleverly made pass any possible test thrown at them because of a smart way the 'flexy wings' would only flex under certain circumstances, and not just simply by putting weight on them [ though they had to adapt ].

There is a huge difference in winning by racing a generally illegal vehicle versus simply have been doing a mighty better job. Vettel and RedBull won 4 titles in a row, they should stop complaining they aren't able to win a title 2 years after because they have a lousy engine. Their problem is not mercedes, their problem is Renault has done a crap job, and they did it again. Ferrari on the contrary did a mediocre job last year, but has done an absolute marvellous job and improved lightyears.

Red Bull has nobody to blame but themselves. They shot themself in the foot on multiple ways.
The most important one to piss off Renault by doing their 'infiniti-trick'. Renault was outspokenly not amused and fairly unimpressed by the then reigning champions choice to slam infinity on the vehicles. Stupid move, imho, because what we're seeing now is Toro Rosso whom did not complain is having a much better day than RedBull.

Last year the RBR camp also were very outspoken on their dissatisfaction with Renault's powerplant. Again, stupid move because it cools down relationships quite significantly, and it's clear as day the relationship has gone down the sink.

It seems like Renault wants more stake in Toro Rosso or perhaps even buy them out. That means Toro Rosso becomes an OEM/Works team. Red Bull could have been the works team but they ruined their chances it seems. So now Toro Rosso already is having a better day compared to RBR and they're having none of RBR's issues.

Fact is Renault is having just 2 teams on the grid right now; Toro Rosso and RedBull. Unfortunately Verstappen had a DNF too, and it was a engine failure, though it did not generally look like something that was because of a bad engine though.

It's complete BS and very low to simply declare to leave F1 because the tides are against you for a while. With their input, Williams, Lotus, Sauber, etc would have been gone long ago. Rediculous!

If RedBull see no future in Renault, and they can't get a Merc, Ferrari or Honda engine - obviously because they've thrown in their own windows AND they want to be some sort of works team, but all have their works outfits already [AMG, Scuderia, Mclaren] then there is one option left; another manufacturer.

BMW, Audi/VW/Porsche/Lamborghini, Toyota, Cosworth, Ford, all possible new engines. Or the return of non-industry engines like Ilmor [remember Ilmor, Mecachrome, Asiatech, Fondmetal, etc.]. Why not go for such an option?

Wolff put it quite clearly; go to Jerusalem to the wall. If Mercedes can, if Ferrari can, why can't Renault? The matter of fact, toro rosso seemed to fair well so it's seemingly just 'red bull''s own failure. They should be happy Mclaren is having issues with Honda, if they did not have these extreme issues, they could have beaten them having them in even a less positive position.

just get to work! stop the whining and do your job. Newey is not almighty, RedBull is not canon, and there are plenty more fish in the sea.

You have reminded of what Hamilton had to say 4 years ago

"Red Bull are not a manufacturer, they are a drinks company. It's a drinks company versus McLaren/Ferrari history. I don't know what their plan is. Our team is building to become a bigger manufacturer, like Ferrari, and I can only see our team being there for a ridiculous amount of time. It is a pure-bred racing team."
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2011/m ... s-hamilton

You can add Mercedes to the list of manufacturers.
Renault should sign a sponsorship deal with Monster Energy to supply all their other motorsports activities

[RicME85]

All this complaining by RBR and people supporting them is ridiculous. If we had all eight Mercedes powered cars in the too eight positions then they would have a point but that's not the case, clearly the Mercedes engine isn't the deciding factor of the W05 and W06, the whole package is.
To level the playing field the FIA may as well turn F1 into a spec series

[cossie]

I know i'm going back in history.Recall when Cosworth introduced the DFV V-8, the f1 engine of all time (IMO). Developed on the whooping sum of $100,000 USD. The big difference between the merc hi-bred and the DFV is once Cosworth was known that it was the over whelming engine, Ford and Cosworth opened up sale to the rest of the teams. That is never going to happen with merc, and by the way Cosworth gave every one the same engine and horse power, I really do not believe Merc is coming anywhere close in giving thier customer's the same engine they use. RB would be smart to divorce Renault at seasons end buy the Cosworth engine and electronics side and be a complete work's team. Just food for thought.

[FoxHound]

People always do forget things so quickly.
There were plenty of discussions about aero rules during this time and in quite a few cases where RBR's aero got cut down mid-season because Ferrari, Mercedes , ... complained about RBR's aero package.

Au contraire!

I recall every team adapting and using the EBD. It was not banned to cut Red Bull's "wings", it was banned because burning fuel for downforce is ridiculous, however effective.
I also recall parts of Red Bull's cars flexing, which is expressly forbidden in the rules and also where the complaints stem from.
Just because a part passes a test, and continues to flex on track does not make it all kosher.

It means the test is obsolete.

[Juzh]

Foxhound really got his bone to chew this time, however rotten it might be.

[turbof1]

A rotten bone? Well that's a first! Degraded bone, sure, but I don't think something like that can rot .

We should be reasonable about this: Red Bull managed to have the best EBD, and EBD's were in formula one since the 70's. If you then suddenly have the urge to ban it, then that has nothing to do with being reasonable, but with trying to limit one car's dominance.

However, Horner made a big excageration out of it by also involving wing flexing and double diffusers into it. Wing flexing is by principle banned and double diffusers is something red bull never got the most out of.

[H2H]

James Allen sums up pretty well most of the situation concerning the sport and I-RBR.

Red Bull is angry that when it was winning between 2010 and 2013 the FIA kept banning technologies at which it excelled, such as exhaust blown diffusers, but now that Mercedes is winning, there is no comparable brake on the technologies which contribute to their success. And, even worse, the rules greatly restrict rivals from developing their engines in order to compete.
Mercedes appears to have increased its advantage over the field, although we need to be cautious as Melbourne can give a false reading. Malaysia and Bahrain will give a more accurate picture.

Red Bull has obviously invested considerable capital into the sport and is it's biggest employer spread over two teams which represented short of a quarter of the line-up in Australia.

Red Bull props up two teams with a combined workforce of around 1,200 and Renault’s involvement in F1. Its loss would be a body blow to the sport at a time when it does not have many teams that are robust for the long term.

[FoxHound]

The bone is easy meat.

Red Bull hate losing and will do whatever it takes to beat it's rivals. It used to do it on track.
Now it relies on PR, spin and politics rather than finding a constructive solution with Renault...even when the rules allow it.

If that is how they play, then that bone is ripe for picking Juzh.

[maccafan]

All this complaining by RBR and people supporting them is ridiculous. If we had all eight Mercedes powered cars in the too eight positions then they would have a point but that's not the case, clearly the Mercedes engine isn't the deciding factor of the W05 and W06, the whole package is.
To level the playing field the FIA may as well turn F1 into a spec series

Totally disagree. 99% is due to the engine. If the engine pushes really good then you can afford pushing the aero. You would not care if it is effective downforce or not. Just recall that RB had to reduce the downforce in the beginning of 2014 because it was causing to much drag.

[FoxHound]

Red Bull has obviously invested considerable capital into the sport and is it's biggest employer spread over two teams which represented short of a quarter of the line-up in Australia.

Red Bull props up two teams with a combined workforce of around 1,200 and Renault’s involvement in F1. Its loss would be a body blow to the sport at a time when it does not have many teams that are robust for the long term.

I'm going to pick the bones out of this story, cos James Allen is not painting a thorough picture.

Red Bull is angry that when it was winning between 2010 and 2013 the FIA kept banning technologies at which it excelled, such as exhaust blown diffusers, but now that Mercedes is winning, there is no comparable brake on the technologies which contribute to their success.

This is totally inaccurate.
We have already established that the FIA did not ban anything because Red Bull excelled at it.
Even worse is the fact that half the bans affected their rivals worse. The DDD for example hampered Ferrari and Mercedes relative to Red Bull.
The F-duct hampered McLaren and Mercedes more than Red bull.

The EBD ban was long in the making, Red Bull used it for 2 years, and then promptly developed a Coanda system that was more effective with the Renault engine than the Mercedes...it used far less fuel for the same effect.
Less fuel = less mass = faster car.

And, even worse, the rules greatly restrict rivals from developing their engines in order to compete.

Explicitly incorrect.
Tokens allow development for over 80% of the engine. Allied to the changes you can freely make if a part can be shown to be more reliable or cheaper to produce. Renault did this before in 2010 during the V8 "freeze".


As for Red Bull owning 2 teams....does this mean they can hold F1 to ransom when things don't go to their liking?

Mercedes employ the same amount of people for their team and their engine operation....

[ME4ME]

I don't know what people were expecting. Sure Redbull's complaining is getting boring, irritating even. But the point is, they are a team, just like many others, who try to build the best possible chassi and aerodynamics. But no matter what they do, they will not have a chance because their supplier, Renault, screwed them. They are simply not on a level playing field, and it's out of their hands. After all the promises from Renault, and the help they got from Redbull, nothing came through. If I were in Redbulls shoes I would be pretty pissed off too. The big question is how to tackle this problem, and improve their changes to once more be able to compete. They are pretty much trapped. There is no real alternative to replace Renault with, so the political lobbying starts. It's annoying, but personally I don't blame them ..

[cossie]

The bone is easy m
Red Bull hate losing and will do whatever it takes to beat it's rivals. It used to do it on track.
Now it relies on PR, spin and politics rather than finding a constructive solution with Renault...even when the rules allow it.

If that is how they play, then that bone is ripe for picking Juzh.

You're looking at now 2 years in a row that Renault is not competive. Ya if I were RB I'd be pissed also they hire Illien who ste BTW Mercedes I'll more, still poor results a lot of wtf is going on at Renault.