Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[maccafan]

Totally disagree. 99% is due to the engine. If the engine pushes really good then you can afford pushing the aero. You would not care if it is effective downforce or not. Just recall that RB had to reduce the downforce in the beginning of 2014 because it was causing to much drag.

Well theres an argument that makes no sense

If 99% is the engine then where are Lotus, Williams and Force India in this then? If your saying only 1% is down to the chassis then your suggesting that the 4 merc powered teams would be in a league of there own then the 1% is what defines there order. This is of course not true. Merc are over a second a lap ahead of there fellow merc engine users as well. This would lead me to believe that Mercs success isn't 99% down to the engine.

I do not believe for a second that lotus, williams or fi are using the same engine mapping as the mercs. Even Pat Symonds mentioned this in some interview. I would not be suprised if the merc engines output at least 20-30bhp more and provide better driveability. In todays F1 the software provided with the engine is a huge differentiator, and only the works team get access to the best version of the software. This is the reason why mclaren moved to honda. With merc engine they would fight for points or even podiums but never championships

[FoxHound]

if you had the will to spend the money to catch up, you could. Right now in F1, Ferrari and to a bigger extent Renault and Honda are totally screwed. Imo they will never catch up with the current token system in place.

Please expand on this.

Alot of people are having a right moan about "tokens". Tokens = Development.

Engine manufacturers are allowed to change up to 48 per cent of their power unit for this season, with modifications allowed at any point over the campaign.

Even in the days of the unrestricted V10's.... Changing an engine by 50% was near unheard of. Mercedes developed step changes, as did BMW and Ferrari. Engines will have a certain architecture, and design language that makes a total change unnecessary.

In short, there are very few carry-over pieces between the 2014 and 2015 power units.-Rob White of Renault

From Renault themselves.

Basically this is all stemming from...

Viry needed a refresh. We did not suffer from a lack of resources or finances in 2014, it was simply that the resources were not joined up in time or used to their optimum.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117480

So it needs to be put to bed that the token system does not allow development or somehow freezes in an advantage.
That is Red Bullshit.

1 race does not a case make!

Why are you not giving this season more time? Last I checked...we've had but 1 race.

[djos]

if you had the will to spend the money to catch up, you could. Right now in F1, Ferrari and to a bigger extent Renault and Honda are totally screwed. Imo they will never catch up with the current token system in place.

Please expand on this.

Alot of people are having a right moan about "tokens". Tokens = Development.

Engine manufacturers are allowed to change up to 48 per cent of their power unit for this season, with modifications allowed at any point over the campaign.

Even in the days of the unrestricted V10's.... Changing an engine by 50% was near unheard of. Mercedes developed step changes, as did BMW and Ferrari. Engines will have a certain architecture, and design language that makes a total change unnecessary.

In short, there are very few carry-over pieces between the 2014 and 2015 power units.-Rob White of Renault

From Renault themselves.

Basically this is all stemming from...

Viry needed a refresh. We did not suffer from a lack of resources or finances in 2014, it was simply that the resources were not joined up in time or used to their optimum.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117480

So it needs to be put to bed that the token system does not allow development or somehow freezes in an advantage.
That is Red Bullshit.

1 race does not a case make!

Why are you not giving this season more time? Last I checked...we've had but 1 race.

Mate, we've had an entire season to set the precedent, Ferrari have clearly done a much better job this year but Mercedes is clearly still out in front e.g. Williams in qually trim is still faster. If botas wasn't injured it would have been an all Williams row 2 and all Mercedes powered podium imo.

It's not just the tokens, the 4 engines per season locks you into at least 5 races with a PU so if you start the season with a dud (e.g. Renault and Honda) you are stuck with that dud for 1/4 of the season.

It's just insane!

[Jolle]

By the way, the wining of RedBull because of the speed of the Mercs is also a bit strange in the light that they (Renault) used the least tokens available so far. Which means they aren't on full potential themselves even...

[FW17]

Cyril Abiteboul blames Red Bull

Our program actually makes progress. The problem is that we got pushed into a very aggressive development program at a late stage in winter. Essentially we bypassed and shortened some important development steps. And then you do some things on the dyno that you actually should do on the track, which isn't our normal proceeding. This is a good learning process for everyone who wanted to proceeed that way.

[FoxHound]

Cyril Abiteboul blames Red Bull

"This is a good learning process for everyone who wanted to proceeed that way."

Shots fired in return!

I don't blame Mr Abiteboul in the slightest.

[FoxHound]

Mate, we've had an entire season to set the precedent, Ferrari have clearly done a much better job this year but Mercedes is clearly still out in front e.g. Williams in qually trim is still faster. If botas wasn't injured it would have been an all Williams row 2 and all Mercedes powered podium imo.

It's not just the tokens, the 4 engines per season locks you into at least 5 races with a PU so if you start the season with a dud (e.g. Renault and Honda) you are stuck with that dud for 1/4 of the season.

It's just insane!

I agree that the 4 engines a season rule is harsh. No bones about it.

But as has come to light, Red Bull pushed Renault into making mistakes. Its a about as ironic as irony gets.
Why force your supplier into developing parts that need track time? This can only lead to failure.

This has nothing to do with development of the engine or the rules in that regard. Renault could have tested these parts more rigorously with a proper testing programme.
I'm very interested to hear Red Bull's response to Mr Abiteboul.

[Shrieker]

Cyril Abiteboul blames Red Bull

"This is a good learning process for everyone who wanted to proceed that way."

[Gaz.]

Cyril Abiteboul blames Red Bull

"This is a good learning process for everyone who wanted to proceeed that way."

Shots fired in return!

I don't blame Mr Abiteboul in the slightest.

Well it's about bloody time really!

Horner & Marko are talking themselves out of an engine deal with everyone. Mercedes already have four teams and Ferrari & Mclaren have spent the last 6 seasons trying to beat RBR so they are hardly going to supply the team with Ferrari or Honda engines.

[Juzh]

Cyril Abiteboul blames Red Bull

Our program actually makes progress. The problem is that we got pushed into a very aggressive development program at a late stage in winter. Essentially we bypassed and shortened some important development steps. And then you do some things on the dyno that you actually should do on the track, which isn't our normal proceeding. This is a good learning process for everyone who wanted to proceeed that way.

More excuses by renault, even after they admitted they messed up. Which one is it now?
Results and numbers on track are loud and clear.

[FoxHound]

More excuses by renault, even after they admitted they messed up. Which one is it now?
Results and numbers on track are loud and clear.

Renault admitted as much, yes.
But the story WilliamsF1 provided gives us an idea as to why.

Red Bull pushed Renault too hard by demanding parts be added without any track time.

Horner & Marko are talking themselves out of an engine deal with everyone.

After this debacle and Red Bull's posturing, Red Bull may very well find themselves being powered by their own hot air.
I anticipate more broadsides and salvo's....

[Juzh]

More excuses by renault, even after they admitted they messed up. Which one is it now?
Results and numbers on track are loud and clear.

Renault admitted as much, yes.
But the story WilliamsF1 provided gives us an idea as to why.

Red Bull pushed Renault too hard by demanding parts be added without any track time.

And you are willing to blindly believe everything renault says without a shadow of doubt, while at the same time dismiss everything RB says (which is actually supported by hard data). 2 engine failures in first race alone. Not to mention x4 the number compared to mercedes last year. Renault is full of ---, covering their sorry asses left, fight and center since the first pre-season test in 2014, and it's been the same ever since. Same story over and over again. Reliability problems could be excused somewhat if the actual performance was good, but it's not. It wasn't last year and it isn't now. That is a cold undeniable truth. How anyone can possibly believe anything renault says at this point is beyond my comprehension.

Even if that Cyril Abiteboul story is remotely true, what is renault's thinking anyway? Take their sweet time doing what exactly? Absolutely nothing has come of their promises so far. Nothing.

[Gaz.]

More excuses by renault, even after they admitted they messed up. Which one is it now?
Results and numbers on track are loud and clear.

Renault admitted as much, yes.
But the story WilliamsF1 provided gives us an idea as to why.

Red Bull pushed Renault too hard by demanding parts be added without any track time.

And you are willing to blindly believe everything renault says without a shadow of doubt, while at the same time dismiss everything RB says (which is actually supported by hard data). 2 engine failures in first race alone. Not to mention x4 the number compared to mercedes last year. Renault is full of ---, covering their sorry asses left, fight and center since the first pre-season test in 2014, and it's been the same ever since. Same story over and over again. Reliability problems could be excused somewhat if the actual performance was good, but it's not. It wasn't last year and it isn't now. That is a cold undeniable truth. How anyone can possibly believe anything renault says at this point is beyond my comprehension.

Is it not a technical partnership? If you're going to point fingers then point them at both Renault & Red Bull. In the Jerez 2014 test a Renault engineer said to a reporter in passing that RBR were not letting the Renault engineers see certain parts of the RB10 - this may be a small thing but it's lots of small things that add up over time, death by 1000 cuts still results in death just as much as one big blow with a sword.

Renault have appeared to have kept the powder dry with the exception of a few off the record comments and this one by C.A, contrast this with Christian Horner bleating since February 2014 at a near constant rate. Again, look how Ron dealt with the media & Honda after JB was in a tooth and claw battle for last with crossed fingers, toes and testicles that his car might do 300km in one sitting.

If you think Renault are 100% to blame, would you care to suggest where RBR will get an engine from for 2017?

[turbof1]

No excuses for Renault on this one. So just because a customer asked a better power unit, it resulted into a worse one? Sorry but that is simply trying not to loose your face in public.

Also, the reasoning that red bull is a customer team and not a full fletch works team is a bit over the top. Sauber is a customer team, yet made a massive step forward due the better ferrari power unit, even though their aero had little development. A customer team can just as well thrive under a good power unit.

The question is: how do you remedy this? The funny part is that Mercedes has no real silver bullet. There's nothing on both the car and power unit that says: here is where our advantage comes from. Rather, like somebody said before everything is in near perfect harmony. Whatever the Strategy Work Group changes, it will always hurt everybody and not just mercedes. Chances are Mercedes is in the best place to adapt to such changes and just stretches its advantage further out.

Only very radical changes like completely new power units and/or radical different aerodynamics might unsettle things enough. Who will vote against that? Mercedes, Ferrari (they actually dropped their urges for a different PU), Williams, Force India, mclaren and the FIA (they fia finally realised radical changes end up with a lot of costs). 11 votes against 7 votes in the SWG; does not look good to push something through.

I only see 2 options: either drop renault all together out of formula 1 and switch to either a ferrari power unit, or develop one yourself, OR give Renault dispensation for more tokens. The fia might actually vote in favour of this.

[Juzh]

If you think Renault are 100% to blame, would you care to suggest where RBR will get an engine from for 2017?

An overwhelming part of the blame falls squarely on renault's shoulders, and I fail to see any relevance in that and RB's engine supplier in the future.