Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
604gtir
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Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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Moose wrote:
radosav wrote:
ajnšpric_pumpa wrote:According to Mark Huges Mclaren were running 35% ERS during qualifying in order to stop two crucial sensors from overheating.
In race they run it slightly over 35% due to cooler temps.
How much less horse power is that?
104, but it's worse than that. Lack of KERS means the engine is much less efficient, and hence you end up doing a lot more fuel saving.
agree with this.. its a cascading effect

turn down ers, u lose the large amount of instant torque and hp
you lose the torque fill for the turbo
you're more dependant on just the ice for acceleration, meaning increased fuel consumption
resulting in lift and coast everywhere and short shifting and slow acceleration to conserve enough fuel to make it to the end of the race

once they figure out the ers problems all things will start falling into place

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KingHamilton01
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Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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I can't find the sourse now sorry, but I am sure Boullier was quoted as saying they will have look at there approach to the next race given what happened to magnussen and Because Button finished the race. I expect they will turn up the engine and long with everything else now, obviously not to 100% but I think they will improve the engine race to race.
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Thefuelman
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Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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WilliamsF1 wrote:I dont think the IC engine was running full power either; if it was GOD help us.

Last year Merc ran Canada 2 nd half without K-ERS (160 hp off) yet they were not anywhere as slow as Mclaren

I made this point some pages back. Currently if the engine worked as it should have done they would have had 2 seconds more, 4 to be optimistic they would be around the Force India area of the grid in qualyfying. It just cant all be engine. Button did say the car did still lack out and out downforce but it was consistent through corners. Thats really not saying alot.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Quote from "muramasa" on Autosport forums: http://forums.autosport.com/topic/19703 ... try7087634
Arai post race interview full transcript, key parts excerpted as usual, same interview session as prev one of course so parts covered already in prev post are omitted except few.

http://www.f1-stinge...3/16/055419.php

excuse me for messy and unedited but this way a lot easier to do plus just want to leave interpretation up to each.

saw some people wondering they should not worry about 4PU/season and just try running it full power, you'll find answers from Arai here (with which i tend to agree)







Fuel consumption was very severe throughout the race. The setting has to be such that you cannot extract the power, and the same goes for Sat and Fri. That means less fuel efficiency with the same amount of fuel, so we were running with fuel save mode almost all the way today as well. Sometimes attacking a bit but mostly running patiently. Sometimes cornering speed faster than others but overall we were running very quietly. Jenson did really well there.
Using MGU-K. But for example if you apply full power on MGU-K, then you can only recharge next, so energy wise we run it with setting that makes overall balance even. Driver worked hard with his skill, like saving fuel usage and coasting, targeting bringing the car home. Hats off to Jenson.



Race day was cooler so no particular heat issue, with water and oil temps going down and staying lower as the race went on. But as for today, it's impossible to make any changes towards the race, so you only have to race with what it is, so actually there was nothing we could do hardware wise. However from data acquired yesterday we are able to comprehend more, so we'll work on it in the next 10 days. Malaysia is hot so we're cautious.



(what is it that you found out from yesterday' data?)

cannot reveal much about technical matter in detail here, but as for engine, durability against intake air temp is severe. MGU-K as well, higher ambient temp contributes to shorter assist time and motor unit heating up. This is due to aggressive packaging. The MGU-K's motor unit is hidden in such place that you might wonder "where is the motor?", so that should be affecting certainly, but that's our unit's selling point, so we will manage to accomplish that. We are seeing prospect partly, so will take measures for Malaysia.


(Would have made any difference for today's race if you were able to see that prospect already yesterday?)

dont think so, no. Very little can be done at the GP. Might not be impossible, but that something happens as a result of bringing something that isn't verified yet is what we want to avoid the most, so we'd like to do it carefully. There's 20 races, so no way to gamble like that.



No mechanical issue on Friday
Heating problem on Sat, but mechanically no issue



(in order to solve heat problem, any alteration to be made to PU structure and arrangement?) You cannot do that, so we'll work on something/somewhere else
(any compromise on car side?) no compromise. if you compromise on something, you'll stay low. that's no point.
(try new idea?) Right, we'll have to manage it working with McLaren. I think that's the same for any other teams.
(punch hole in the car, for example?) ah we'd like to do something like that certainly, but if you put a hole, air flows better but you lose more in somewhere else instead.



(what's the outlook by being able to finish the race?) Well just one race and one engine. It would be nice if you could open the PU and see everything inside, but it's sealed so can't do. We want to see and check through, but that's the task at Sakura factory, to simulate today's race and examine what was happening with PU. Good first step but we'd like to go forward quicker.


(Current president Ito and next president Hachigo attended GP and were in the garage)

Both incumbent and new presidents understand the situation and have firm commitment, but we can't take things easy and slow. We feel pressure from fans and various people related to us, we want/need result as soon as possible otherwise lose fans.



(9 tokens given) Just accept and go ahead



("drive line" of MGU-K exchanged according to FIA release?) Concerned about friction level etc, so exchanged it under FIA inspection. not that there was particular problem but just to be on safe side
(is it some sort of output axle?) no. something at the base that holds bearings



(So you unlocked the fuel limiter on Jenson's best lap. how about ERS?) nothing tweaked about ERS. The same "save mode" we were running with throughout. We had some fuel left, so went for it.



(it was Mercedes domination. Some claim that FIA should do something about it like ease those regs more or set some sort of restriction etc, your take?)

I dont think so. We have to take the top place on merit, so no point to expect something like that, and quite unlikely to happen anyway. Other teams should have expected such level of competitiveness, but for various reasons they couldnt reach that level. But surely others will recover.



We knew it would be tough race before coming here. In such circumstance, that we could see the flag is the only positive point. As for negatives and regrettables, you can go on listing endlessly. We only have to do it all over again.



(expected better outcome than this from Barcelona results?)

well we thought it was gonna be difficult at the point of friday already. Too many problems unsolved and items unchecked at Barcelona.
The area that we were able to check so far is too narrow, so there's nothing productive about trying something in other unidentified areas at the GP. that's same as abandoning adaptation. So all boils down to lack of time after all.
We can only run with what we've tested and confirmed. This time, we have brought something that is short of toughness against temperature, and it's impossible to tweak and do something at the GP venue. This is such complex system, so even if you tweak one setting, it doesnt tend to go well, it just affects everywhere. The number of data engineers are looking at is enormous. The amount well exceeds the limit human eyes can handle, so.



We estimated temp like sunday's from last year's record, but yesterday was hotter than estimated. 32C was quite hot.
(which component was affected badly the most by heat ?) There was no major issue in MGU-H, altho not completely perfect. But MGU-K was severe. Esp in quali where you use 4MJ of energy at once, heating situation gets severe. We have to improve on that.
Was running engine itself (maybe means ICE) in restricted mode. When the intake air temp is high, we have to apply compromised mapping. If you apply improvised mapping then it would likely damage engine so we dont do that. We couldnt withdraw all from power unit. Lack of preparation so regrettable outcome.
(lowered the rpm during race?) No. Under current reg, there's no point in running it in 15,000rpm, so mechanically it's easier to design in some sense, I guess.
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riff_raff
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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The Merc configuration definitely allows for more effective isolation of the heat input from the turbine wheel and housing. The PM materials used on the MG rotor and the copper stator windings must be kept at fairly modest temperatures. And the high power density required from the MG makes the cooling situation all the more difficult.
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alexx_88
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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I am somewhat surprised to how people started counting the lost seconds. :)

Yes, some of them are due to mapping and insufficient data gathered, but I don't think overheating of the MGU-K is something you can solve through mapping or, better put, not something you can solve without using some tokens. Furthermore, by pushing everything to the limit they may find other ares of concern, so more tokens will be needed. Yes, circumventing the token rule by using reliability as an excuse is good thinking on their part, but that doesn't take away the effort required to redesign important components or, even worse, change layout details of the PU.

I guess what I am trying to say is that, imo, it's unreasonable for us to expect them to get to 100% this year, maybe recover some through better mapping and aero development, but they seem to have significant hardware issues.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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jericho wrote:Just the last 2 laps Button drove some decent laptimes. What did he do to the engine settings??? Both laps were 1 second faster than he the times he drove before
Anyone got the lap by lap timing?

That may be positive, they may be turning up power after watching the PU was going to finish the race, or simply they finished saving fuel.

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FW17
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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So Aria is saying the MGUK packaging is part of the heating issues with it. It isn't in a conventional location. My question:

Is there any benefit to bundling the MGUK and ES together at the front of the ICE? There are already rumors saying the MGUK is at the front.
Honda!

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FW17
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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MGU is water cooled anyway, so why does it matter (as long as other heat sources are isolated)

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ian_s
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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most of the MGU-ks are alongside the engine arent they? so that puts some weight off to one side.
the only advantages i can think of are to have the weight further forward and more central, and to have the MGU-k further away from the heat of the exhausts
This mean that something else has probably had to be moved out of the way though, probably negating the effect of the shift in weight.

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dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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WilliamsF1 wrote:MGU is water cooled anyway, so why does it matter (as long as other heat sources are isolated)
Are there any electric or controls benefits of having the two integrated together? There is a packaging benefit.
Honda!

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diffuser
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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dren wrote:So Aria is saying the MGUK packaging is part of the heating issues with it. It isn't in a conventional location. My question:

Is there any benefit to bundling the MGUK and ES together at the front of the ICE? There are already rumors saying the MGUK is at the front.

He also said "That's our engine's selling point". Sounds like they're just gonna diver some internal air flow to the mgu-k.


Slightly modified take on the Honda PU from Omnicourse from the original by f1.

Image

Mui
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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So Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault have the mgu-h in the V of the engine. What does Honda have in the V?

frosty125
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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The rules around the MGU-K location are very open.
5.2.3 The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the
main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.
Don't think it can be clutched unlike the MGU-H which states.
5.2.4 The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the exhaust turbine of a pressure charging
system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be
clutched.
The rotational speed of the MGU-H may not exceed 125,000rpm.
So it clearly looks like it is somewhere hot so I have 3 ideas.

1. It is in the V and coupled to the crank at the front

2. It is in the V and is couple to the crank at the rear before the clutch.

3. it is built into the rear gearbox/crash structure right underneath the turbine and exhaust, coupled to crank before the clutch.

EDIT
Mui wrote:So Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault have the mgu-h in the V of the engine. What does Honda have in the V?
According to Scarbs the MGU-H is in the V BTW Ferrari also had the intercooler in the V I believe that is still the case as they are not using VLIM.