Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren

[Rob W]

Now Todt is pissed the Mclaren is getting no penalty...

...shouldn't the fact that one person from Ferarri supplied the documents be as big a problem

From his point of view he has every right to be annoyed. Worse yet, I think it's highly likely that Stepney had some McLaren design info. If he was unhappy with his team and Coulghan the same, why on earth would he give Coulghan designs but not get some from him in return? Surely it's more logical that there would have been a two-way swap so they could each learn about the other's teams before moving to another team together?

If this isn't the case then it bodes very poorly for the internal morale at Ferrari that their own people would willy nilly pass design info to a team they're sworn to beating. In fact, if Stepney were not caught and McLaren had been able to make gains from the info, Stepney would essentially be shooting himself in the foot employment prospects-wise. How would his CV look if the year he was put in charge of testing/development was the first year Ferrari were dominated for six/seven years (2005 tire problems aside)?

Rob W

[Giblet]

Ferarri was beating Stepney with Red Stick of Shame for ages. They must know that their mafioso style management would push him over the edge at some point. Either his leaving to anther team or falling apart all together.

[mx_tifoso]

If one person in the Mclaren team is responsible, and the whole team punished, then shouldn't the fact that one person from Ferarri supplied the documents be as big a problem?

Both teams should be leavied fines/punishment under the logic he presents.

Not quite.

Stephney took Ferrari documents to a Mclaren employee (Coughlan). That Mclaren employee would have used them in one way or another to somehow develop an edge over their rivals from Maranello.

The leak came from within Ferrari, but it would have been the Mclaren F1 team that would have used the Intelectual property to their advantage (knowing what Ferrari was developing at that certain period of time and the near future).

What is better than knowing what your main rival is planning to do?

1.) Stephney should definately recieve severe legal punishment for his actions.

2.) Coughlan should be punished as well. For co-conspiring against Ferrari with Stephney. Coughlan's wife should also recieve legal punishment for cooperating in this ordeal.

Those two points at least. I am not sure about what should have been done to Mclaren. I obviously do not know whether they used the Ferrari information. All guilty parties should face the neccesary and just consequences for their ill mannered actions.

If Ferrari were to win the 2007 championship, I would want it to be under legitimate circumstances. Not because their rivals were taken out for them. I suppose this applies to most teams and their respective supporters.

Furthermore, Mclaren is not at complete fault for Ferrari's hindering performance after the first few races. Stephney was responsible for Development over at Ferrari, and his trison obviously had an affect on Ferrari's R&D department.

While Stephney was sabotaging Ferrari by giving their rivals private information, he most likely didn't aid in progressing Ferrari's further development of the F2007. He also "outed" Ferrari on their questionable moving floor.

.............It appears that all is not fair in love and war.

[mcdenife]

mx_tifosi wrote:

Not quite.

Stephney took Ferrari documents to a Mclaren employee (Coughlan). That Mclaren employee would have used them in one way or another to somehow develop an edge over their rivals from Maranello.

The leak came from within Ferrari, but it would have been the Mclaren F1 team that would have used the Intelectual property to their advantage (knowing what Ferrari was developing at that certain period of time and the near future).

What is better than knowing what your main rival is planning to do?

1.) Stephney should definately recieve severe legal punishment for his actions.

We still dont know if in fact the docs came from Stepney and I think Ferrari's 'grief with the decision" is misplaced and just for show. I think for Ferrari, a santion on MCL would have been bonus, but what they really wanted and got was something checkered touched, ie

Quote:
The WMSC will also invite Mr Stepney and Mr Coughlan to show reason why they should not be banned from international motor sport for a lengthy period and the WMSC has delegated authority to deal with this matter to the legal department of the FIA.


Which F1 team would venture to hire them in the short term and in what capacity? I was and am troubled by individuals facing several procedures and punitive ramifications (self regulatory, judicial) resulting from the same action. There's little or no benefit in this for anyone involved as far as I can see and it seems disproportional ... condemn the action, then move on

If it is confirmed that Stepney sent the doc, who will employ him in F1? In a way they are playing a dangerous game because if the docs did not come from Stepney, then have lost big time. Who wont want stepney? There could well be a mad scramble for his services.

[nae]

"Today's decision legitimises dishonest behaviour in formula one and sets a very serious precedent," an excerpt from Ferrari's lengthy statement added.


so flexi wings arent dishonest then or moveable floors or any other strange interpretation of the rules practised by the red team or any other for that matter

its all just posturing, at least i hope it is as i find it somewhat immature of Ferrari to complain about the FIA not doing there bidding. if they wanted action i am sure they could have got the Italian courts to do something more than they have already, but being Italian that would probably have taken to long to effect the outcome of this years championship

[Minicucci]

Ferrari's use of so called 'flexi-wings' and 'moveable floors' was completly within the the technical regulations. It was not malicious.
This ruling puts a black mark on F1. How can a team be found guilty of being in possesion of another's intellectual property, and not be penalised. It's like letting a thief go because, yes he broke into the house, took a tv, but didint plug it or sell it later.
Oh wait, I know how, it's when you have some new driver who is apparentyl being hailed as the next great one...
"This is f**ing bulls**t!" - Paul Staddart US GP 2005
I always knew Paul had something going on up there.

[mx_tifoso]

We still dont know if in fact the docs came from Stepney and I think Ferrari's 'grief with the decision" is misplaced and just for show. I think for Ferrari, a santion on MCL would have been bonus, but what they really wanted and got was something checkered touched, ie[

If it is confirmed that Stepney sent the doc, who will employ him in F1? In a way they are playing a dangerous game because if the docs did not come from Stepney, then have lost big time. Who wont want stepney? There could well be a mad scramble for his services.

Of course they came from Stephney. Where have you been for the past few months? Stephney provided the Mclaren team with Ferrari documents.

And who would employ Stephney now? I would believe that no one is going to hire him after this scandal. Would you hire him? I bet not.
He is a traitor.

He doesn't deserve to be given a second chance. His actions are of tremendous consequences and in some way or another have affected the outcome of the 2007 championship. And not in a good way. He could have done that in a good way, by doing his job and developing the F2007.

At least legal action is still pending over the case with Ferrari against Stephney and Coughlan. Unfortunately Mclaren has escaped the long arm of the law (even after being proved guilty). If they win the '07 CC, it will be a tainted version of what could have been a good, clean one.

But then again, battle is rarely completely good and clean.

[FLC]

Jean Todt, from autosport.com:

That's not all: McLaren during the hearing admitted to have received secret material, and that the knowledge of this operation of espionage arrived at the top level, even to Ron Dennis, and there hasn't been any penalization. It's shameful.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61172

The only way for Mclaren to get out of this with no punishment is if they called the FIA and Ferrari on the spot when they knew Coughlan had the documents, which is obviously what they chose not to do. No one has even yet explained that gap in time that rised up with that untruthful statement from Mclaren.

I hope Ferrari appeals.

[mcdenife]

mx_tifosi wrote:

Of course they came from Stephney. Where have you been for the past few months? Stephney provided the Mclaren team with Ferrari documents.

To date where Mike C got the docs from has never been disclosed and rather public speculation. based on the fact that they are friends, know each other, worked together previously, both had meeting/interview with Honda together, etc, etc, etc. Indeed, Stepney has and still denies given the doc to Mike C. So unless u know some fact (rather than speculation) that nobody else know, please share it.

Tellingly, if it is a fact that Stepney sent the doc, why has he not been arrested, or is not a criminal offence that has been alledged? yet he has not been arrested and is not out on bail.

[FLC]

I wonder then, why did Mclaren suspended Chouglan? aren't they the most honest team (:roll:) on the grid and would never make him a scapegoat???


oh, and Stepney is subject to criminal proceedings, I think the trial will start at the end of the year, and from what I've read he could face up to 4 years times in jail.

[dmw]

I must say I agree with the FIA's reasoning. Maybe it was Holmes who said hard cases make bad law, and this may be such a case, but I think they created the best outcome possible by adhering to the right fundamentals.

Mclaren faced no penalty benefitting Ferrari because, under the bedrock princple in western legal systems, a private party must show four things to get a remedy against another: 1. existence of a duty, 2. breach of the duty, 3. injury and 4. causation. The FIA is not a legal body but these principles are grounded in basic reason and sanity and even little kids know them instinctively. Ferrari did not win a penalty because, even if you consider the rule against possessing information "strict liability," and even if you consider Coughlan having the document the team's breach, Ferrari could prove neither injury to its championship effort nor causation by the relevant standard. As a "criminal" concept, there would have to be some proof of intent or of conspiracy to violate the rule. Also lacking or not proven. So it was possibly fair to cite McLaren for violating a rule, or even to impose a fine or probabtion, but not fair to give Ferrari or anyone else a counterbalancing advantage in the championship as a result.

The rule says only "possession." But, as I said, even if you consider this strict, we need to recognize the implications of making mere possession or another team's IP or physical property culpable. Under that view, analagously, I could destroy one of my client's competitors if my paralegal willingly or accidentally emailed its CEO or one of its employees my client's proprietary information, and if the competitor somehow decided not to invite a lawsuit or investigation by immediately calling up the law, instead of telling the employee to destroy it and to stop talking about it. Having learned about this, I could call the police and point out the unauthorised possession and get a big penalty against them or a payout. That's not the result of a sound rule, even where possession strictly creates duties, such as in western securities laws.

In this ruling the FIA will be eventually vindicated because it had the insight, foresight, and courage to ignore the obvious outcry and to give a salutory function to a troublesome rule. It gives a stern warning to the competitors, but signals that its discretion will be soundly and effectively applied to reasonable ends. And, for its own sake and for the fans', preventing an immediate orgy of litigation before it and other courts on "possession" in F1.

[mx_tifoso]

The only way for Mclaren to get out of this with no punishment is if they called the FIA and Ferrari on the spot when they knew Coughlan had the documents, which is obviously what they chose not to do. No one has even yet explained that gap in time that rised up with that untruthful statement from Mclaren.

You bring up a very good point with this. But it is sad that everyone pro-Mclaren cannot see this even with their eyes wide open. Fry (Honda) came forward with the fact that the two alleged subjects came to him with the IP on hand. But the ever so honest Mclaren F1 Team never bothered to do so. Why? I do not know.

I hope Ferrari appeals.

+1

Tellingly, if it is a fact that Stepney sent the doc, why has he not been arrested, or is not a criminal offence that has been alledged? yet he has not been arrested and is not out on bail..

Have you never heard of innocent until proven guilty. I am not fully aware of Italy's court sytem, but I do believe they share similar thought on that as they do here in the U.S.

Or do they not have that in Africa (Timbucktu)?

You can't, or shouldn't, penalize someone until they have been proved guilty of their accused actions.

Stepheny + documents Coughlan (Mclaren F1)

In your opinion, who else could have sent the documents to Coughlan? It was surely Stephney, they are accomplices in this whole crime. They both went to other teams looking for employment, with Ferrari documents in possesion (IIRC). The accusations against Stephney and Coughlan seem rather logical to me.

[MrT]

Everyone can complain that Mclaren should be held accountable for Coughlans actions, but if that is the case, Ferrari should also be accountable for Stepneys actions, and hence they should be penalised for letting their secret information into Mclarens domain.

[johny]

letting information doesn't breach any article of sporting code, that's what B-teams do

[hatchet man]

i'm sorry but any suggestion of ferrari being penalized for letting their information be stolen is ludicrous. if your car is stolen, you don't go to jail for letting it get stolen... unless you are trying to scam the insurance company.

that said ferrari wouldn't leak their testing and race telemetry and car design to a rival team, it was stolen. if a ferrari employee steals the information, then the employee is guilty. if a rival team has possession of stolen property, the team is guilty.

in my opinion, the fia screwed this one up because they don't want to influence the chance of hamilton winning the championship in his rookie year.