Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren

[DaveKillens]

Following Ferrari's logic, this lays a landmine of deadly traps for anyone who complains... including Ferrari. For instance, if a team complains or raises queries about another competitor's "confidential" equipment, then logically they have obtained confidential information, and thus are guilty of industrial espionage. Remember a few years ago when suddenly Honda got nailed at Imola for the illegal fuel cells? Just who learned about this obviously secret bit of kit? Honda may be guilty and worthy of sanctions.. (they were penailzed by a two race ban) but the team that complained, they obviously were definitely guilty of industrial espoinage, and used it to gain an advantage over another. Listening to some fans push for major sanctions........
Think about it, and be careful of what you wish for.


eidt.. food for thought, and asking the question... just who isn't spying on their competition?
Ferrari themselves have managed to get McLaren technical equipment banned thanks to other people's intervention. In 1997 Darren Heath's sensational photographs of the McLaren brake/steer device gave Ferrari the evidence they needed to have it banned (after it had been passed as legal by the FIA technical delegate). To get these he went on track to the retired McLaren of David Coulthard and stuck his camera into the footwell.


And Ferrari, it now turns out, are not above spying themselves. Former Ferrari driver Mika Salo told Finnish newspaper Ilta Sanomat: "When I was driving for Ferrari (in 1999) we always spied on McLaren, listening to their radio traffic. After every practice session I had in front of me, on paper, all the discussions Mika Hakkinen had had with his engineer." (Though Ferrari have prompted him to amend this quote to emphasise that all the eavesdropping was accidental due to radio interference).
http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3 ... 48,00.html

[checkered]

How did Ferrari know about the Renault mass damper?

As I said before, curiously the TMD (or harmonic absorber) had been public knowledge for a long time. Renault first employed it in September 2005 and was able to use it for almost a year, in which time at least seven other teams started to develop similar systems as the FIA technical delegates (perhaps surprisingly) seemed to have no objection. No-one publicly admitted to protesting against the TMD, albeit Flavio Briatore (who should be in the know) named McLaren as the complainant, notably at a time when Ferrari were their main opponents. Though no-one to my knowledge has corroborated this statement, it fits neatly into the pattern of McLaren shifting their focus very early in 2006 towards the 2007 championship campaign while disadvantageing their competition as much as possible by their actions.

In fact, as I've noted before, copying someone in F1 is the fastest way to end up being second best. If you'd want to enhance your chances of winning by using competitor data, the best course of action would be to prevent your adversary from using their own innovations whenever you can. And I think it's safe to say that McLaren pulled off a very similar move with the flexing bib inquiry as they did with the tuned mass damper ... in the end, over half the field had to revise their designs while McLaren, who apparently had advance knowledge of the Ferrari floor design especially, was in liberty to design their own car in the advance knowledge that once they intervened they themselves wouldn't be in a disadvantage. Perhaps they wouldn't have acted so soon had Ferrari not been so much faster from the start.

How “stuff” got around is already pretty well established in this case. Stepney sent a host of emails to Coughlan, and Coughlan ended up with 780 pages of Ferrari technical documents (not exactly “passive” intelligence) after having lunch with Stepney in Spain. Surely, if McLaren acted as an intermediary in a “whistle blowing” capacity in the floor issue (that wasn’t a breach of enforceable rules but a matter of interpretation and procedual alteration), it would’ve been in their interest (compared to a WMSC hearing) to divulge immediately and publicly that they had gotten the information without prior contact or request – and to prove the chain of possession. That would’ve happened prior to the season’s start, then, and been a disadvantage for Ferrari also. Equally, this would have been in line with the accord between the teams on mutual consultations, but of course it should’ve been clear to McLaren’s leadership that their earlier actions had prevented them from ever being able to live up to their commitment they themselves proposed. Perhaps they saw more interest in Stepney’s continued employment at Ferrari, whatever that interest might’ve been.

That the Woking outfit has Alonso and Hamilton, two very marketable F1 drivers who represent a huge investment for the team, mustn’t have hurt in all this and the team drove the point home by adding their comments in the “reaction” released after the WMSC meeting at Paris. McLaren has certainly appeared to display wide ranging aggression in their pursuits recently, apparently determined to withstand some controversy should that befall them as a result. Perhaps the worst case scenario that could be imagined is that someone at McLaren requested Stepney and Coughlan to “ask for a job” at Honda in June this year to back up the defence that the pair acted as “rogue” elements as it became clear that the story would begin to unravel somehow. It would’ve been unrealistic, after all, to expect Fry not to be suspicious at two top engineers from different teams appearing at his doorstep together, so there was little risk in them actually being hired. The photocopying affair and how it got out is a similarly unlikely development in the age of scanners, printers and whatnot.

Of course much remains unclear. People are not perfect and do not always act logically, which doesn’t help. But I think what’s not in question is that all this takes away from what F1 in essence should be ... and I’m bemused to find myself thinking about this, instead of technical developments or racing itself. Even the official F1 website sports a poll “Do you agree with the FIA's decision not to punish McLaren?” at the moment (roughly 2/3 say “no” currently). What can we do so that the price of victory doesn’t become too great for the sport to withstand?

[siskue2005]

even though u know that it wasn't ferrari who complained about it....

I know and that's why I didn't say Ferrari complained about it, just that they knew about it. Read my post more carefully siskue. But even Ferrari knew about it. And they weren't punished for it. Even though they knew detailed stuff about their competitors car. So as you can see, it's not that easy to just punish every team who knows some stuff about others cars, whether it's the whole team or just some person(s) in the team.

Well but caught RED HANDED with, ur rival's COMPLETE car docs, and intriguing details, which can only be told after having their car in ur garage, is CHEATING...isnt it?

and Mclaren's noticeable change in pace this season is pure example , how they used it to ban ferrari's advantage, and also work their B'STONE tyres well!

I know most Ferrari fans would love to see their worst rival get punished for whatever.

Not true....its just Ferrari Haters, who wants to blame everything on them!

I cannot believe people come with some things ( like renault mass damper ) to blame it on Ferrari!

And also supporting a CHEATING team, and also wants to see a FAKE championship...even if one team cheat to get the title

[pRo]

Not true....its just Ferrari Haters, who wants to blame everything on them!

I cannot believe people come with some things ( like renault mass damper ) to blame it on Ferrari!

Calm down. Count to 100. Then walk around the building. Take a cold shower. Etc.

I never blamed Ferrari on the mass damper issue. I just said they knew about it. Are you saying they didn't know about it?


It's funny how everything is black and white to some enthusiasts. Everyone has to hate Ferrari, if they don't love Ferrari?


Like I said, calm down. And please read what I said with a thought. Replace Ferrari with any other team, if it makes you feel better and the subject easier to handle. It's not about the teams, it's about the matters. Ask yourself if Honda should be punished, because they knew about the Renault mass damper, if that's easier to think about.

[Torso]

Formula 1?

Not anymore. It`s formula Ron Dennis. He gets away with anything and everything everytime.

I hate him and I hate McLaren. They steal, they cheat and they lie.

F1 as a sport is dead.

[manchild]

Formula 1?

Not anymore. It`s formula Ron Dennis. He gets away with anything and everything everytime.

I hate him and I hate McLaren. They steal, they cheat and they lie.

F1 as a sport is dead.

Hahaha... simply amazing!

[FLC]

Maybe someone can reflect on this:
Jean Todt said on the interview Ferrari released after the WMSC decision, the one where he accuses them for being hypocrite, and rightly so I must add, that they admitted installing a firewall to prevent information from coming in.
So if a factory with such obvious sensitivity to info. security is having a problem like that, doesn't it go up the chain? What, Coughlan downloaded a cracked version of some software and installed it himself? Then Stepney was too charming to refuse to and they went together to Fry? I dont get it.
And if you ignore my last cynical remark and it did go up the chain, why didn't Mcalren informed the FIA? Because they were comfortable having it?

I mean it doesnt add up, if they really wanted to stop the info. from coming in what would be cheaper? A phone call to Jean Todt or a firewall? How much do they collect on long distance in Woking? anyone knows? How much is a firewall? Maybe they did download a cracked version, RD has already proved himself to be a lot less honest than he may wish to be seen. Sad.

[Tom]

I don't think there was ever any proof that Mclaren obtained any Ferrari information, or that it even entered Woking. A Ferrari employee obtained Ferrari information and gave it to a Mclaren employee, of that we can be reasonably sure.

I can agree that Mclaren should have been charged because their employee is their responsibility but on the same note the Ferrari employee is Ferrari responsibility too and therefore Ferrari cannot say that Mclaren as a company stole their information because then it could be argued that Ferrari as a company gave the information away!

[pRo]

I can agree that Mclaren should have been charged because their employee is their responsibility but on the same note the Ferrari employee is Ferrari responsibility too and therefore Ferrari cannot say that Mclaren as a company stole their information because then it could be argued that Ferrari as a company gave the information away!

That's the funny part. People, including Todt (which we apparently should now call a crybaby?), keep saying that McLaren should be responsible for everything their employees do. But the employee of Ferrari was just an individual person and Ferrari has nothing to do with it.

Either the team is responsible for everything their employees do behind their back or they aren't. It cannot be one thing with one team and another with another.


So, why Ferrari decided to give the information to McLaren in the first place? And why Ferrari demands a punishment for the other team for receiving material they volunteered to give out?
(ObNote: If you're a Ferrari fan, don't take the above dead seriously!)

[FLC]

I guess if Ron Dennis - AKA Whiner&CO (Alonso) - can fool so many in thinking that he is so honest, he can also make them think that Mclaren actually didn't know about Coughlan and what he had or was doing.

Apparantley most of us understand that Ferrari didn't know about Stepney's doings, except maybe those who believe in that scam about sending manipulated information.

But somehow Mclaren has managed to publish a deceptive press release, which was inconsistent with the sequence of the events. They also knew about Ferrari's flexing floor right at the beginning of the season and for some reason RD, the one known for his bitter rivalry with Ferrari, chased JT a few weeks after the Australian GP to sign a weird agreement of some sort.. Oh. and let us not forget that Mclaren had to install a firewall in a sensitive workstation, of the chief designer(!),no less, and no one in the factory knew about it. That's without the affidavit of Coughlan himself, which leaked, and which he swore in that other Mclaren team members knew.

[Tom]

Yes FLC, but you're missing the point. There was no proof that Mclaren knew, no actual solid concrete proof, and if you immediately go making assumptions based on a random series of events it's equally easy to say Ferrari set the whole thing up to disscredit Stepney, because I'm sure there are a random series of events which half suggest they might have.

As it happens there is no reason to believe Mclaren knew about the plans and no reason to believe they didn't, so they must be found innocent until proven guilty because thet's how almost every legal system in the world works (unless it comes to speeding where you're guilty till you proove you're innocent).

I'm not siding with any team and I'm deliberatly trying to be unbiased in my posts, I'm just stating common sense because that's what seems to be clouded most in these subjects when people start backing who they support rather than who is actually right and who is wrong!

[DaveKillens]

Yes, indeed, Ron Dennis is much more than merely persuasive. I had a dream last night, and in it Ron appeared. When I gazed upon the perfect symmetry of his round head, I was filled with the joyous epiphany that everything he said was much more than truth, it was cosmic honesty of the tenth degree.
Get real, get a grip, team principals usually never know of the misdeeds of rogue employees.

And I pointed out that one of the major differences between Ferrari and McLaren is the turn of reliability. In the last few years, McLarens have shown pace, yet failed to finish. This year the situation is reversed. Any devout Ferrari fans wish to comment?

[Rob W]

Well but caught RED HANDED with, ur rival's COMPLETE car docs, and intriguing details...

Just to clarify, you could not get an entire car design onto 780 pages. It would be in the thousands.

Also, considering Jean Todt has also said McLaren has track, testing, set-up data it would require even more 'pages'.

Rob W

[Rob W]

Yes FLC, but you're missing the point. There was no proof that Mclaren knew, no actual solid concrete proof...

As it happens there is no reason to believe Mclaren knew about the plans and no reason to believe they didn't, so they must be found innocent until proven guilty...

I agree Tom. There has to be some perspective in all of this. On paper and with the evidence which McLaren presented to the council which we wont ever get to see/hear about, they were able to bring the ruling down on their side of the coin.

The line of discussion - did McLaren get any technical gain from Coulghan having the plans? - is largely a non-issue and would actually be relatively easy for McLaren to disprove if needed (by showing design iterations for the last six months to a technical panel). But merely being in possession of another team's intellectual property is against the rules. McLaren have clearly done a thorough job of defending their position that Coulghan didn't incorporate or disseminate the info further into the McLaren team - he simply let them know he had them. McLaren were not in possession of them at any point in time. It would be unfair to assume they did with no evidence at all (as in this case).

Ferrari have every right to be annoyed in all of this but they really can't expect a whole lot of sympathy from a large group of F1 fans after some of the stunts they've pulled over the years ("Ruebens, pull over, I repeat: pull over and let Michael have the win" ). Todt has made his point very clear though, does this really set a president for the future?

I'm astounded it hasn't come out from Coulghan that Stepney was in possession of some McLaren plans too. How else were they going to be a 'team' and learn about each other without info being swapped both ways?

There is more to come on this topic without doubt.

Rob W

[ginsu]

I've never felt sorry for Ferrari until now.