Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
allan
allan
0
Joined: 14 Jan 2006, 22:14
Location: Waterloo, Canada

Post

pRo wrote: If you remove the word Ferrari from the posts, many posts look very funny. First you say that a team should be responsible for everything their employees do. Except if they work for Ferrari. What's the logic in that? Either every team is responsible for everything their employees do, or they aren't. So which way is it? Including Ferrari. And McLaren. And BMW. And Renault. And every other team. Can you answer this simple question for me, please?
allan wrote:And for that silly argument that Ferrari should be responsible for what Stepney had done...Tell me Sherloks, how would u classify a spying scandal then?? Have u ever heard about some engineer who has an official authorization to steal documents from his team and take it to another designer, who also has the same authorization from his team to recieve those documents? Is that how you'd like it to be done in order to call it "Spying"???
Here's your answer Pro

FLC
FLC
0
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 14:01

Post

pRo wrote:Well, the problem is that it's very, VERY, hard to try and engage a reasonable conversation with a Ferrari fan. Most of them are very emotional, which causes issues when talking with someone who isn't pro or con for either team. I've tried and asked simple questions from you (not especially you allan, but Ferrari fans in general) without any answers. It's very hard to discuss matters with people, who refuse to discuss.
Indeed. It's very hard to discuss with those who wont even bother to read the posts they've been given as answers or worse - as questions. If they do read them, I guess they choose to ignore.
And as that is the situation, it will always come to what Ferrari did in the past, which is also somehow very different from what other teams do. Ferrari isn't the issue here, Mclaren and Ron Dennis is.

User avatar
pRo
0
Joined: 29 May 2006, 09:08

Post

allan wrote:
pRo wrote: If you remove the word Ferrari from the posts, many posts look very funny. First you say that a team should be responsible for everything their employees do. Except if they work for Ferrari. What's the logic in that? Either every team is responsible for everything their employees do, or they aren't. So which way is it? Including Ferrari. And McLaren. And BMW. And Renault. And every other team. Can you answer this simple question for me, please?
allan wrote:And for that silly argument that Ferrari should be responsible for what Stepney had done...Tell me Sherloks, how would u classify a spying scandal then?? Have u ever heard about some engineer who has an official authorization to steal documents from his team and take it to another designer, who also has the same authorization from his team to recieve those documents? Is that how you'd like it to be done in order to call it "Spying"???
Here's your answer Pro
I'm sorry, but I still don't understand it. Is it a yes or a no? All I see is more questions in your quote. :?


Let's assume both.

1) Team is responsible for their employees, even when they do something they aren't supposed to.

"Have u ever heard about some engineer who has an official authorization to steal documents from his team and take it to another designer, who also has the same authorization from his team to recieve those documents?"

Ferrari is responsible for it. It doesn't matter if the employee has an official authorization or not. Ferrari should be punished for sending their data around the world and McLaren should be punished for reading it. Ban both for two years.


2) Team is not responsible for their employees, if they do something they aren't supposed to.

"Have u ever heard about some engineer who has an official authorization to steal documents from his team and take it to another designer, who also has the same authorization from his team to recieve those documents?"

Have you heard that the McLaren employee had an official authorization to receive documents from other team and show it around? Neither team should be punished. The employees should be punished as persons.


1 or 2?
Formula 1, 57, died Thursday, Sept. 13, 2007
Born May 13, 1950, in Silverstone, United Kingdom
Will be held in the hearts of millions forever
Rest In Peace, we will not forget you

allan
allan
0
Joined: 14 Jan 2006, 22:14
Location: Waterloo, Canada

Post

Pro!! For god's sakes your driving me crazy man!
I really don't know what to say dude!!! I mean common!!! Having a discussion with you is like banging the head into a wall ](*,)
If u couldn't understand my answer, take a nap, shake ur head a bit, come back and then read it again!!!!!
Or u know what? Let's put it this way:
Let's say u have a kid who stole something from ur neighbour's house ( a Tv let's say as one of the guys here posted before) and u knew about it, but yet did not tell the neighbours nor the police. Do u proscute the neighbours for not locking their door???? Or do not prosecute the kid because he did not plug in the Tv he'd stolen????
This is the exact same situation!

Just think for a couple of minutes before replying :wink:

FLC
FLC
0
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 14:01

Post

If only the world was easy as that. Did we say pathetic already?

This is from the one who preached for a discussion like 2 posts before, and he gives us options to choose from, as if this is all there is to it. :roll:

Ferrari didn't know of what Stepney was doing, for reasons already given. They also had nothing to gain from it.
There's a good probable chance tho., to phrase it with super-delicate words, that Mclaren did know about Coughlan, and gained from it. One does not have to go as far as comparing the cars, as eliminating an advantage as the flexing floor or knowing about some strategy data is more than enough.

If you want to stay in your black and white world, which is totality distorted, stay in it. Spare Ferrari for a technical and punish Mclaren for spying.

FLC
FLC
0
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 14:01

Post

:lol: Welll he is "one of those thickheads"... :lol:

User avatar
checkered
0
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

Post

Well, there are a lot of

smileys flying around, and references to everything being funny, hilarious even. How come I get the feeling that exactly the opposite is true especially if that point has to be expressed something like ten times in the same thread? Exhortations for calm are also a little less than convincing, both for the “exhorter” and the “exhortées”, if followed up by referring to team managers as crybabies and portraying fans (by whatever description) of certain teams as irrationally emotional and incapable of displaying reason in a conversation.

I can only draw on my experience in saying that I’ve seen self-professed fans of every team display every kind of behaviour, especially on messageboards – whether I’ve aspired to be impartial or not. It is perhaps better to refrain from generalisations, especially so on a specialized website such as this. My own experiences of personal dealings with true tifosi are that they have a certain perspective, yes, but at the same time I've found them courteous and dignified in defeat towards those that fly different colours or are largely “nondenominational”. By this I’m certainly not implying I condone everything the team has done in its history – merely that they’ve both benefitted and suffered from being in a focal point of F1.

The application of “respondeat superior” doctrines, i.e. employer’s liability for employees’ misdeeds is of course as a principle contingent on towards whom the misdeed is directed to. A misdeed is, by definition, perpetrated against the interests of someone or something, thus pRo’s “dilemma” lacks an absolutely necessary component - the object of the misdeed – and ends up as circular reasoning. In short, if the misdeed is directed towards the employee’s own employer, the employer’s liability is negated by the company’s status as the victim of the misdeed. If, in turn, the employee’s misdeed is directed towards anyone else in a manner that relates to his job, the employer bears responsibility.

Furthermore, Ferrari seemed to act as soon as they got wind of something untoward going on within their company, certainly before they even knew what it was about, exactly. Meanwhile, if Todt’s public record (“A reaction in the cold light of day") is correct, and he’d be a fool if it wasn’t for he’d be held accountable for it before he could say "affidavit", McLaren’s leadership sat on their hands for months on end in the detailed knowledge that their employee was receiving information of value that didn’t belong to him personally, let alone their team.

I certainly haven’t seen McLaren offer a rationale for doing so - if Stepney indeed initiated the contact the team’s loyalty to their head designer Coughlan wouldn’t have been in any kind of a conflict with the team’s general interest in not contradicting “respondeat superior” rules. They could’ve immediately divulged the nature and content of the contact to their own benefit and to the detriment of Ferrari in having to deal with a very senior rogue employee and having the team to revise their floor design. At the same time, ironically, it would've served to improve trust between the teams.

Of course, this is just how things appear to stand with my own limited exposure to media right now. And of course Ferrari and McLaren haven’t been to a court of law with this. The WMSC held a hearing which certainly didn’t adhere to general common law practices as far as I can understand. The procedure was its own. Good thing this messageboard isn’t a court of law either, as I hardly think allowing public perceptions, let alone allowing prior cases that have involved the protagonists of the current proceedings but aren’t precedents, to affect the case. That would hardly be according to the best judicial traditions. And if enforcement has faltered earlier, it is never too soon to correct that no matter who is involved, otherwise acrimony and controversy will continue. F1 is a long-lived form of motorsport and it’s worth remembering that while the teams remain, generations change.

My perception is still that McLaren is, all in all, a great team with all its current personalities and is a force to contend with. I certainly do want them to stay in contention by their sporting prowess alone. But I think I’m not alone in worrying about what, exactly, has happened and what effect it might still have on everything, on a wider context too. Former McLaren racer John Watson expressed some dismay recently, while others have been upbeat about all this. Perhaps it’s worth noting that it’s a tricky exercise to be pro something without being con something else ... but not impossible!

:wink:

User avatar
pRo
0
Joined: 29 May 2006, 09:08

Post

allan wrote:Let's say u have a kid who stole something from ur neighbour's house ( a Tv let's say as one of the guys here posted before) and u knew about it, but yet did not tell the neighbours nor the police. Do u proscute the neighbours for not locking their door???? Or do not prosecute the kid because he did not plug in the Tv he'd stolen????
This is the exact same situation!
I don't see it as exactly the same situation. First of all, the McLaren employee didn't hack his way into Ferrari computer and steal anything, he received it from a Ferrari employee. Second, a tv is just an item, which can be returned and it doesn't matter if you saw it or not. You can't use it once you give it back.

How about this? The neighbour's kid sees nude photos of his mom and takes copies. He also gives copies to your kid (or mine, or whoevers). Your kid then tells you about it and/or shows them to you. Would you go to the police, or tell the neighbours that it was all your fault? Do you think it would be fair to punish you, because your kid got something from another kid?

It's also an embarrasing issue, it might not be that easy to go talk to her and say you have a nude pics of her. I'm sure it would be even harder to convince her that you didn't look at them at all. Especially if you two aren't friends, but more like enemies.

Just think for a couple of minutes before replying :wink:
I did. I was also waiting for an answer. Maybe our worlds are just too far apart and this isn't going anywhere. I'll shut up now.
Formula 1, 57, died Thursday, Sept. 13, 2007
Born May 13, 1950, in Silverstone, United Kingdom
Will be held in the hearts of millions forever
Rest In Peace, we will not forget you

allan
allan
0
Joined: 14 Jan 2006, 22:14
Location: Waterloo, Canada

Post

Ok pro.. Let's go with your example:
You forgot to mention that the kid's parents (the one who recieved the photos) knew about them, and did not stop him!! They also did not tell the other kid's parents, or even the police, about the stolen pics or about their son's behaviour! This is what happened in real life!!
I don't want u to shut up man! You are saying ur opinion, which is somehow strange and lacks the necessary support, however i think we both have some pretty big heads, and we're not willing to change our minds:wink:
P.S: I'm feeling we're going off topic now.... Nude pics eh? :wink: :lol:
Last edited by allan on 31 Jul 2007, 05:13, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Tom
0
Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
Location: Bicester

Post

CEASE FIRE!!!

None of us here know nearly enough about the situation, we will not influence the FIA decision by arguing the same points over and over again, believe it or not the FIA isn't completely stupid, they took into account all the evidence and made a decision. We must respect that decision until a higher power (i.e. the law) alter it.

Principessa and Tomba have been away for days and this is what the forum has come to, posts and counter-posts repeating the same points. I've made my feelings clear, so has everyone else and I don't think we need to hear any more.

Please stop fighting amongst each other on this thread.


On a lighter note I found Dave's post last night highly amusing:
Yes, indeed, Ron Dennis is much more than merely persuasive. I had a dream last night, and in it Ron appeared. When I gazed upon the perfect symmetry of his round head, I was filled with the joyous epiphany that everything he said was much more than truth, it was cosmic honesty of the tenth degree.
and I think, ignoring the actual subject, we should all give Dave a round of applause for best use of sarcasm to convey humour! =D>
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

modbaraban
modbaraban
0
Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Post

Very sad.

Everytime I click refresh and see that the `General Chat` has new post I end up bumping into this topic. :? ... and the topic's getting nowhere. I 'm sorry there's no Tomba or Principessa around to close this thread of flamewar and same things repeated on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and over again...

Where's manchild with his porn links :?:

User avatar
checkered
0
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

Post


waynes
waynes
1
Joined: 23 Aug 2006, 23:23
Location: Manchester

Post

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/28072007/ ... marks.html

just wondered if you all had seen this one :D

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Post

Of all the arguments that have been put forward, the comments from pRo seem the most logical and make the most sense.

Guys, we have beaten this horse to death.

ginsu
ginsu
0
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 02:23

Post

Furthermore, Ferrari seemed to act as soon as they got wind of something untoward going on within their company, certainly before they even knew what it was about, exactly. Meanwhile, if Todt’s public record (“A reaction in the cold light of day") is correct, and he’d be a fool if it wasn’t for he’d be held accountable for it before he could say "affidavit", McLaren’s leadership sat on their hands for months on end in the detailed knowledge that their employee was receiving information of value that didn’t belong to him personally, let alone their team.
This is exactly the point, and had it been argued in front of a jury instead of the WMSC, I'm sure it would've resulted in a punishment for McLaren
"The McLaren bosses, with no exceptions, admitted that their chief designer had obtained since back in March, prior to the Australian GP, documents from [former Ferrari engineer] Nigel Stepney,” said Todt on the official Ferrari website.

“Some of this data was used to prepare a clarification request submitted to the FIA, aimed clearly at us, given that throughout the Melbourne weekend, McLaren team principal and his closest colleagues made statements in which they threw doubt over ‘some cars’. Therefore, such information was in fact used to obtain an advantage over us: not through an improvement in their performance, but instead through limiting ours.”
I think this is the best Argument that Todt has, and it can be easily proven.

I'm not going to comment on this anymore, there will be criminal and civil proceedings and we will see how far this all goes, unfortunately, it will be a very slow process.
I love to love Senna.