Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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bhall II
bhall II
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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As currently constituted, I'm not the sure comparisons to Mercedes, or any other team, have much value here. Not to take anything away from their success, but it seems to me that Mercedes' advantage is probably less about what they've done right and more about what the other teams have done wrong (or can't afford to do).

When Luca Marmorini was fired by Ferrari last year, he claimed that team strategy was to sacrifice power for aerodynamic efficiency, and we all know how well that worked out. While it sounded an awful lot like an empty excuse at the time, Ferrari's recent upturn in performance suggests that maybe he wasn't full of --- after all.

And Red Bull has a loooooooooong history of energy recovery issues.

In 2009, work on Red Bull's in-house KERS solution was stopped after battery testing caused a fire at the factory. The team subsequently signed an agreement to run Renault's KERS, but never actually used it. That means Red Bull gained zero experience with the processes and conditions associated with energy recovery that year.

In 2011, on the heels of the FOTA-led moratorium on KERS in 2010, Red Bull ran a customized KERS that differed from the Renault system by some 40% and was beset by problems not experienced by other Renault teams.
f1zone.net wrote:Auto Motor und Sport said the foundation of Red Bull's KERS is the Renault system, but it differs in design by 40 per cent to the base unit, which has functioned in the Lotus-Renault essentially without drama so far in 2011.

The report said Newey has packaged KERS unusually compared to the bulk of the field, for example by placing some components to the left and right of the gearbox.

In comparison, Renault's KERS is under the seat, while Red Bull's has suffered from vibration, high temperatures and software glitches.
It's no wonder Adrian Newey said, "If I'm honest, I would rather not have KERS on the car."

In 2012, it was reported that Red Bull used floor-mounted supercapactors for energy storage. While this proved to be successful in the short-term, it couldn't have afforded much long-term insight, because supercapacitors run much cooler and are easier to package than batteries; it's why the team used them.

In 2013, Red Bull reliability issues frequently affected both drivers, especially Mark Webber. For example...
abc.net.au wrote:"KERS, gearbox, you name it... driving the car so far off the potential is unbelievable and so massively frustrating.

"It's stupid, it's embarrassing and it's a brutal circuit to be out of position.

"We should be challenging for the front row and we're bloody 10th. So ... a pain in the arse.

"It's amazing... all the effort you go to - and it's two weekends on the bounce where you get that."

Webber is widely regarded as the unluckiest man in the pit-lane by paddock regulars after suffering a series of car problems.

The Australian said he now feared he will struggle to improve on 10th in the 70-lap race at a circuit where overtaking is almost as difficult to achieve as it is in Monte Carlo at the Monaco Grand Prix.

"The team have got to get the car operating at the limit tomorrow," he said.

"It's a long race and things need to be functioning correctly. KERS was 50 per cent (of the problem) and there were other things.

"So we managed to tick nearly every bloody box in qualifying and made it hard.

"Hopefully we'll get that sorted for tomorrow, but it's going to be hard to get the result we should do."
Vettel...
f1fanatic.co.uk wrote:Team principal Christian Horner said the KERS fault would have cost Vettel four to five tenths of a second per lap. “It was unlucky for Sebastian,” he said.

“The KERS we had an issue with this morning, we changed as much as we could. In the first session it failed, in Q1, it came back in Q2. And then in Q3 it failed immediately so both Sebastian’s laps in Q3 were without the KERS so a great performance from him to get the car onto the front row.”
All of this is to say it should come as no surprise that Red Bull is once again struggling with energy recovery, a fatal flaw in today's formula. Such problems are nearly as much a part of the team's history as is their storied success, not to mention the fact that they're up against rivals who have more experience with the kind of energy recovery systems currently in use. (Plus, Adrian Newey isn't exactly known for designing bulletproof cars, yanno?)

It's for these reasons that I think it's unfair for Red Bull to point the finger at Renault; the team has proven quite capable of making mistakes all on their own. And because of that, I think it's highly unfair for Red Bull to call for "equalization." Such a request amounts to little more than asking for a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, and even Ferrari, the (former?) undisputed World Champions of Whining, haven't asked for that.

(Damn, this turned out to be a lot longer than I thought it was gonna be. Sorry.)

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FW17
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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I think Renault are in worse place than Red Bull

Red Bull................... If they find a new engine partner or start their own aided programme then Torro Rosso will not be up for sale and Renault will be screwed

Either having to buy Enstone or Sauber with its huge debts
Force India with not much of a facility

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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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WilliamsF1 wrote:I think Renault are in worse place than Red Bull

Red Bull................... If they find a new engine partner or start their own aided programme then Torro Rosso will not be up for sale and Renault will be screwed

Either having to buy Enstone or Sauber with its huge debts
Force India with not much of a facility

Who will supply Red Bull?
There are also a few customer teams that would love a free engine.
JET set

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WaikeCU
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Joined: 14 May 2014, 00:03

Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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FoxHound wrote:
WilliamsF1 wrote:I think Renault are in worse place than Red Bull

Red Bull................... If they find a new engine partner or start their own aided programme then Torro Rosso will not be up for sale and Renault will be screwed

Either having to buy Enstone or Sauber with its huge debts
Force India with not much of a facility

Who will supply Red Bull?
There are also a few customer teams that would love a free engine.
I think Audi tbh. I believe there's a possibility that Domenicali is prepping the guys to enter F1. They haven't said they will enter F1, but they haven't denied it either.
Last edited by WaikeCU on 25 Mar 2015, 11:14, edited 1 time in total.

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SectorOne
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Joined: 26 May 2013, 09:51

Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Bring popcorn for Friday PC.

Image
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

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Juzh
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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bhall II wrote: All of this is to say it should come as no surprise that Red Bull is once again struggling with energy recovery, a fatal flaw in today's formula. Such problems are nearly as much a part of the team's history as is their storied success, not to mention the fact that they're up against rivals who have more experience with the kind of energy recovery systems currently in use. (Plus, Adrian Newey isn't exactly known for designing bulletproof cars, yanno?)
So how did lotus and TR end up in flames more often than not, if they've had a stellar pre-2014 record with kers?

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Juzh
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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FoxHound wrote:
WilliamsF1 wrote:I think Renault are in worse place than Red Bull

Red Bull................... If they find a new engine partner or start their own aided programme then Torro Rosso will not be up for sale and Renault will be screwed

Either having to buy Enstone or Sauber with its huge debts
Force India with not much of a facility

Who will supply Red Bull?
There are also a few customer teams that would love a free engine.
Who? Genuine question.

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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Juzh wrote:
FoxHound wrote:
WilliamsF1 wrote:I think Renault are in worse place than Red Bull

Red Bull................... If they find a new engine partner or start their own aided programme then Torro Rosso will not be up for sale and Renault will be screwed

Either having to buy Enstone or Sauber with its huge debts
Force India with not much of a facility

Who will supply Red Bull?
There are also a few customer teams that would love a free engine.
Who? Genuine question.
Any team struggling for cash. Sauber for instance.
JET set

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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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SectorOne wrote:Bring popcorn

Oh man... this is going to be epic! Christian "hot air" Horner in the blue corner and Cyril "pit bull" Abiteboul in the yellow corner with Franz "toasty" Tost waiting in the wings.
This could go either way...damp squib or rumble in the jungle.
JET set

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Juzh
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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FoxHound wrote:
Juzh wrote: Who? Genuine question.
Any team struggling for cash. Sauber for instance.
Sauber said publicly ferrari PU is a major reason in their improvement from last year. I highly doubt they'd be willing to insert themselves near or into last place with a renault PU, no matter how cheap it is.

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FW17
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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FoxHound wrote: Any team struggling for cash. Sauber for instance.

It is not about free engines but more of a works team. At the moment the mid-field teams will require huge investments to turn into a front runner. Not sure in Renault are unto it or can justify it.

Previously in a works team scenario bulk of the budget would be brought in by sponsors and the engine supplier, now the sponsor part is completely gone means that Renault would have to shoulder the bill of 200 million for engine development and another 200 million for the team.

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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Juzh wrote:
FoxHound wrote:
Juzh wrote: Who? Genuine question.
Any team struggling for cash. Sauber for instance.
Sauber said publicly ferrari PU is a major reason in their improvement from last year. I highly doubt they'd be willing to insert themselves near or into last place with a renault PU, no matter how cheap it is.
Regardless, last year that Ferrari PU was not as good as the Renault. After 1 race its not possible to make a sound assessment based on performance.
The Ferrari unit is now better, but you are assuming this will remain until season end.
I bet if Renault offered their engines free to Sauber last year in october, they'd have taken it.

@Williams
The way things are presently, Renault could well be looking to buy a lower ranked team.
Much as Red Bull did with Jag and to a lesser extent Mercedes and Brawn/Honda/BAR.
And its a buyers market with all the troubles we are hearing in connection with Force India, Sauber, Manor, the now fairly stable Lotus (seeking a cash injection with a possible name change the latest), and the defunct Caterham team.
JET set

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FW17
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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The only way one can see the team getting a new manufacturer engine deal at the moment would be to build an engine itself and then convince a car company to badge it, a trick that Roger Penske pulled off years ago with the original Ilmor when he wanted to get GM into IndyCar racing with the Chevrolet brand. Give a car company a cheap deal to get into F1 and you may end up with a suitable partner, willing to pay in the future. It will be interesting to watch…

-Joe Saward


With such aspirations in the air one can see why Renault are reluctant to let Mario Illian see the inside of the engine

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FW17
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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In Project Management when a Contractor is behind schedule by a week you either loose it calling for the head, threaten with penalty etc. or say that the Contractor is doing a good Job, delay is manageable or acceptable etc.

Both are equally valid, and work equally. In the end it is about getting it done.

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Juzh
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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FoxHound wrote: I bet if Renault offered their engines free to Sauber last year in october, they'd have taken it.
Oh, I'm sure they would take a free renault in october 2014. Equally as much as I am sure they wouldn't in march 2015.