Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[bhall II]

All of this is to say it should come as no surprise that Red Bull is once again struggling with energy recovery, a fatal flaw in today's formula. Such problems are nearly as much a part of the team's history as is their storied success, not to mention the fact that they're up against rivals who have more experience with the kind of energy recovery systems currently in use. (Plus, Adrian Newey isn't exactly known for designing bulletproof cars, yanno?)

So how did lotus and TR end up in flames more often than not, if they've had a stellar pre-2014 record with kers?

I'm not saying Renault is without fault here. In any collaboration, the onus is on both parties to make things work.

I just don't understand Red Bull's current lack of accountability, given the team's history. To read Horner/Newey/Marko's comments on the subject, you'd never guess that KERS issues are practically a tradition for them at this point.

[turbof1]

I think most of all this emphasises the trust issues between Red Bull and Renault.

Until now the bickering between renault and red bull has actually also reflected on this discussion, with members taking either side (admittingly, I am one of them). Renault did a bad job with the PU, Red Bull didn't do well with the chassis and are now both stuck with issues that are very difficult to resolve within a season.

That's the difference of course with Ferrari and Mercedes: engine and chassis departments are very deeply merged into one another and work in full attunement. The managerial structure on those 2 is that there aren't trust issues or the urge to protect company secrets. No trust issues means a deep cooperation that allow chassis and engine to be fully integrated, instead of one not working well together with the other.

This also why Mercedes and Ferrari PU work well in other cars (although not as good as the works team): the achieved integration is transferrable to a customer team.

Renault and Red Bull however miss on out on such integration, and as you can see it falls apart.

[toraabe]

I think most of all this emphasises the trust issues between Red Bull and Renault.

Until now the bickering between renault and red bull has actually also reflected on this discussion, with members taking either side (admittingly, I am one of them). Renault did a bad job with the PU, Red Bull didn't do well with the chassis and are now both stuck with issues that are very difficult to resolve within a season.

That's the difference of course with Ferrari and Mercedes: engine and chassis departments are very deeply merged into one another and work in full attunement. The managerial structure on those 2 is that there aren't trust issues or the urge to protect company secrets. No trust issues means a deep cooperation that allow chassis and engine to be fully integrated, instead of one not working well together with the other.

This also why Mercedes and Ferrari PU work well in other cars (although not as good as the works team): the achieved integration is transferrable to a customer team.

Renault and Red Bull however miss on out on such integration, and as you can see it falls apart.

Those guys at RB and Renault just need to get their heads together and sort this out. There are only loosers when shouting out in media like CH is doing. If Rb has pushed Renault into a development plan on behalf on reliability it is not Renault's fault that their engines are blowing up. Remember last year the Renault engine was clear ahead of Ferrari in terms of drivabiliy. Renault plans to use another turbo solution next year so we will see. This year CH is more acting like a clown ..

[FoxHound]

I bet if Renault offered their engines free to Sauber last year in october, they'd have taken it.

Oh, I'm sure they would take a free renault in october 2014. Equally as much as I am sure they wouldn't in march 2015.

Benefit of Hindsight you'd not have. And still, that is just one race you are basing it on, I'll reserve judgement until at least the middle of the year.

[turbof1]

I don't think these going into the past hypothetical hindsight questions aren't going to help. We are not in the past, we can not change the past and we cannot change the present in order to change the past.

The only thing that can change is the future, based on the fixed present and past.

Maybe you darlings want to give this a break until after the race weekend? After all, Renault will probably introduce some solutions. Some things we need to consider first though:

-We need to check if any of the 4 renault cars changes PU components
-Ricciardo inserted his second PU during the Melbourne weekend, which will be the same messy specification as the one that broke down. Will he continue with flawed PU components or will he insert 3th allocations of the maximum 4?
-For the ones who do change, will the issues be resolved or partly resolved?

[Jolle]

from GPUpdate:

Abiteboul told French publication Auto Hebdo this week that it was 'difficult to have a partner who lies'.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3235 ... -red-bull/

so... Will RedBull still be in F1 in 2016 and who will supply the engine? This sounds like Renault is a bit fed up with RedBull and we can expect in the near future that they will take the engine and Infinity sponsorship and go to buy ToroRosso or another small team. Or... next year... a RedBull Acura Honda and the McLaren Infinity Renault...

[ME4ME]

Those guys at RB and Renault just need to get their heads together and sort this out. There are only loosers when shouting out in media like CH is doing.

They did had a meeting last year. That's when Renault made their restructure and put Abiteboul in place. Still, minimal progress since then. No wonder Redbull got impatience and put even more pressure on. Renault folded, screwed up some more, and put blame on Redbull.

[miguelalvesreis]

Not so sure that would be easy to RB to find a new partner.

1st, the major sponsor is Infinity. If Renault is gone so is Infinity €€€€. ±50M€ of it!!!

2nd Audi. Are they really considering it? Maybe after seeing Honda struglling they´ll grow some concerns about it. Furthermore, Piech isn't exactlly fond of it! They have DTM and LMP to struggle with and it's not like you can simply transfer LMP1 tech to F1 power plant wise.

The word that Domennicalli is working for Audi on that matter seems a bit stretchy. Is working also for FIA on F2 on a project were Alfa Romeo has been linked with. Kinda strange!

Own power plant devellopment with Mario Illien? He's a known genius with ICE but that doesn't seem to be the real issue on this engines and, this seems to be a enormous project to be carried by their facilities.

Cosworth? Really? On what grounds would RB choose an engine that has all to prove? Check Honda situation. This engines are a paramount project! Don't really believe that this is a good solution.

Seems worse for RB actually!!

They have to solve their development processes and communication skills. 2 me is a simple case of one of the partners assuming a dictatorial and demanding position resulting in poor work!

My 2 cents 'bout it

[cossie]

RB buying out cosworth is'nt just throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing if it sticks idea. Jerry Foersyth has had Cosworth on the trading block for the past couple of years. Kalkoven screwed Jerry over when the merger was happened between indycar and champion car occurred. Kalkoven went behind Jerry's back with back room talks with Tony George

[Jolle]

RB buying out cosworth is'nt just throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing if it sticks idea. Jerry Foersyth has had Cosworth on the trading block for the past couple of years. Kalkoven screwed Jerry over when the merger was happened between indycar and champion car occurred. Kalkoven went behind Jerry's back with back room talks with Tony George

What could be an option, certainly with the new rules being less stressful on the ICE itself, that they could design the concept themselves, have Coshworth or another custom builder develop and manufacture it and have different partners for the different parts of the PU, like for instance Samsung or BYD.

[Gaz.]

from GPUpdate:

Abiteboul told French publication Auto Hebdo this week that it was 'difficult to have a partner who lies'.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3235 ... -red-bull/

so... Will RedBull still be in F1 in 2016 and who will supply the engine? This sounds like Renault is a bit fed up with RedBull and we can expect in the near future that they will take the engine and Infinity sponsorship and go to buy ToroRosso or another small team. Or... next year... a RedBull Acura Honda and the McLaren Infinity Renault...

Mclaren has exclusive use of the Honda engines for the 2015 & 2016 seasons so it won't be Honda.
Ferrari have been trying to beat RBR in the 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 & 2014 seasons and plan to supply to Sauber, Manor & Haas so would lack the capacity to supply a 5th team, 6th if you include STR assuming Manor & Sauber survive 2015 so it won't be Ferrari.
Mercedes has said they'll only supply three customer teams, again assuming Lotus & Force India survive 2015 so no Mercedes donkeys either.

2016 could be a very awkward year.

[Raleigh]

Mercedes will not give Red Bull an engine. Ferrari will not give Red Bull an engine. McLaren will not let Honda give Red Bull an engine. Only non-Renault option is to build their own engine, or a new player.

I have no expectation of a Red Bull engine being any good (even if they buy the Cosworth design), just look at their struggles with their own KERS and it's too late for a new entrant to start developing for next year, plus as Honda have shown new entrants face a monumental uphill battle.

And while Ferrari has very effectively closed up the gap to Mercedes (now offering near-parity) the Renault engine seems to have lost ground, not only are they further from Mercedes but they now have 12 cars on the grid with a better engine vs 8 last year. This poor development does not bode well for the future.

So Red Bull has little hope of further success in F1 until the next major regulations change, no wonder Christian Horner is crying.

[bill shoe]

Yea, RB are facing an extended period of uncompetitive power. It reminds me of the Indy Racing League 15 years ago when Sam Hornish was saddled with an uncompetitive engine in a power-intensive oval-racing series. He proceeded to never say a bad word about his engine and raced the crap out of it, often finishing 3rd, 4th, 5th in a field full of cars with huge power advantages. Epic performance. So far RB has only given epic temper-tantrums.

In the big picture the RB/Renault problem is simply an inevitable case of 4 major engine manufacturers competing in F1 with mega-budgets. None of them can afford to be unsuccessful, but obviously some of them will be. Renault is in the barrel this year and maybe next. My simple advice to companies entering F1 (Audi) or expanding their F1 positions (Renault): do not do it unless you can comfortably afford to spend that amount of money and fail. Because simple math says you will probably fail.

[Hail22]

Bring popcorn for Friday PC.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CA7ljhAWEAAvIJv.jpg:large

*grabs some butter and salt for said popcorn session*

It'll be interesting and knowing Dieter he'll be pressing for a scoop =D>

[djos]

@FoxHound

So how are those rb11 chassis issues Renault claimed existed looking?

Both looked decent in the wet qualifying and Dan RIC placed his in p4 on row 2 along side Britney with Dan K 1 place behind on row 3!