Amateur racing culture

[bdr529]

Good day. I would like to get informed about the amateur racing culture, especially in United Kingdom. As far as i know, if you love racing you should buy a car for 1000£-2000£, modify it and race on trackdays. I think it is expensive and i search for solutions to enable non-rich people to race on weekends with their friends. Please provide some information about the amateur racing culture. Thank you.

I would like to know how you came upon the idea that there was a need for a less expensive way to go to a track day

[Moose]

I would like to know how you came upon the idea that there was a need for a less expensive way to go to a track day

I imagine that would be based on his own personal experience. I know plenty of people who would love to take cars racing, or just hammering them round a circuit for a day, but can't afford to spend a couple of grand on doing so.

[bdr529]

I would like to know how you came upon the idea that there was a need for a less expensive way to go to a track day

I imagine that would be based on his own personal experience. I know plenty of people who would love to take cars racing, or just hammering them round a circuit for a day, but can't afford to spend a couple of grand on doing so.

Maybe I don't know? that's why I'm asking RacingEngineering what it was, that got him to think there was a need.
I agree with you Moose that may be his reason, but it's best to ask the man himself.

[RacingEngineering]

I made a research asking people who love cars what will be better for them - to buy an extra car for racing or rent one. For you guys, i consider, racing is an interest point of 1000-10000 people(who own extra cars for racing). But for me - at least 100 000 people for whom is better to rent a car than to buy. You know that 1000-10 000 people in UK, but you dont know those 100 000.

[RacingEngineering]

Bdr29, Moose answered your question as well. ''I know plenty of people who would love to take cars racing, or just hammering them round a circuit for a day, but can't afford to spend a couple of grand on doing so.''

He knows a lot of people. Key phrase - a lot of people

[Moose]

Bdr29, Moose answered your question as well. ''I know plenty of people who would love to take cars racing, or just hammering them round a circuit for a day, but can't afford to spend a couple of grand on doing so.''

He knows a lot of people. Key phrase - a lot of people

Note - just because a lot of people want something cheap, does not mean that it can be made cheap.

[RacingEngineering]

Why not? You can use innovative technologies as electric drive or extremely strong tires. You can build new chassis which will reduce fuel and tire consumption. And the racing enjoyment will stay on the same level. There are so many solutions. We just need to find best of them. Why so pessimistic?!

[bdr529]

Yes Moose did answer my question but as he is not spending the money himself, I thought it best to ask you

Perhaps you should look at starting with just a couple of cars that people can rent for the day to take to a track day instead of them renting the car from the track or the company that runs the track day, this would allow you a starting point with out having to take on the large capital cost of buying all 20 or so cars at once, and the cost that come with them, you would also eliminate the cost of renting the track, as this would be covered by someone else, you would just be required to cover the cost of 1 or 2 cars that you rented out and not the cost of the track for the whole day, better to start small and grow
You said it yourself

You can not just come and create an Apple or Microsoft by hiring 1000 people

buy the way Microsoft start out renting computer time at night from companies that could afford the high cost of computers back then.

http://www.javelintrackdays.co.uk/ runs tack days for people with their own cars and they also rent cars
BMW E36 M3 £699/day, Road Runner SR2 £499, Mazda MX5 £399, Fees include - Fuel, Tyres, Insurance, Helmet Hire

You could start by under cutting their price for the rental of the Mazda by offering the same car or similar, or as you first said VW Golf MKII for £199 (or what ever) for the day. as demand for your service grows so to can your fleet of cars.

Let me give you a tip, Don't look at theses comments as being negative but a free road map with all the possible potholes and pitfalls already marked out for you

[RacingEngineering]

Yes. I am very grateful to all people giving me comments. I was just going to reveal is there any opportunity for my ideas and it turned to cost computations rather than finding out the market. I was going to compute my costs on the next level but guys here did it instead of me, revealing that fuel and tires cost much more than expected. Considering that it is important for me to find solutions on creating, not copying.

[theblackangus]

The black angus, thanks for your computations but on the initial level capital expenditures are not considered (it is a rule).That is why i have not mentioned all data you have provided. Also, if you are interested in it, you can make a sensitivity analysis to find out positive and then negative scenario. In addition, all businesses start from the ground(5-10 people). You can not just come and create an Apple or Microsoft by hiring 1000 people. Especially if you are a student. Consider this fact please

You started with the computations. People were just trying to point out to you 30-50GBP per hour goal would barely cover fuel.
My computations had no capital expenditures, only on going operational costs. I merely mentioned that you are not taking some capital expenditures and some re-occurring operational costs into account yet. I was just looking at the items you proposed and the costs to break them down to a level of more detailed understanding, to help show you where the calculations you ball parked are low even at a conservative guess. This helps understand where the challenges are to achieve your goals.

Where did I say to build a Microsoft or Apple? I inferred nothing of this, unless you consider the 13 staff "Microsoft" level.

[RacingEngineering]

The black angus, thanks for your computations but on the initial level capital expenditures are not considered (it is a rule).That is why i have not mentioned all data you have provided. Also, if you are interested in it, you can make a sensitivity analysis to find out positive and then negative scenario. In addition, all businesses start from the ground(5-10 people). You can not just come and create an Apple or Microsoft by hiring 1000 people. Especially if you are a student. Consider this fact please

You started with the computations. People were just trying to point out to you 30-50GBP per hour goal would barely cover fuel.
My computations had no capital expenditures, only on going operational costs. I merely mentioned that you are not taking some capital expenditures and some re-occurring operational costs into account yet. I was just looking at the items you proposed and the costs to break them down to a level of more detailed understanding, to help show you where the calculations you ball parked are low even at a conservative guess. This helps understand where the challenges are to achieve your goals.

Where did I say to build a Microsoft or Apple? I inferred nothing of this, unless you consider the 13 staff "Microsoft" level.

You rent a track both with hiring a crew. It is illogical. Also while starting a business you aim to reduce all types of costs (economies of scope). As bdr29 wrote, it is important to start from something small. I also knew that. And that is why your computations are for the next level.We can non use ''Microsoft'' level numbers for a start-up........ I havent started with computations. If i am not mistaken, FactsOnly did it. Also i wrote thrice that i need to find better solutions, meaning that i agree with brake,fuel,tire costs. And you do not need to repeat again that it is impossible to do because of the huge expenditures. To sum up - Don't blame, offer solutions.

[alexx_88]

From my own research, the cheapest track day car which is also reasonably fun is an MX5. It costs pennies to run, light and it's easy on the tires and brakes. Some people are reporting to have tires last them the whole year, even with track days, but You can also supercharge it and take it to ~200 bhp with a reasonable cost. Apparently it does ~15mpg at track days.

[hollus]

You came asking for input, and you are getting plenty of it. And you are getting it for free. Why so defensive?
On another note, there is one way to go racing without fuel running costs: EV. Can save in brakes too. Capital expenses is another story, though.

[andylaurence]

Also i have used your computations as a guide. Actually i am going to have not 20 Ariel Atoms but 20 Golfs, preferably Golf MK2 (good grip,engine,racing history). And that is why i have reduced a bit tire costs, kept the same fuel costs but increased salary. My computations:

30days/8 hours/20 cars
Fuel=144000GBP

I can tell you from personal experience that a Mk2 Golf (assuming you mean a GTi) will consume far more than 0.5l/minute. My little 999cc engine consumes more than 0.5l/minute. If you want to keep fuel costs to ~60p/minute, then you need to pay less for your fuel or use less of it. Half of fuel costs in the UK are the taxes, so you could look to run cars that use tax-free or cheaper tax fuel. As the cars are not running on the road, could you use red diesel? How about vegetable oil, LPG, propane, hydrogen or electric? The duty on those is much smaller and that's why there's an LPG/propane filling station at Bedford autodrome, which is used to run all the school cars, including the single seaters. Using less fuel can be achieved in a variety of ways but using less powerful vehicles is probably the easiest way. Note that if you're looking to have 20 cars on track at all times, you will probably need 40 cars.

Braking=36000GBP (you wrote for ariel but here we have golf, so cost will be even lower)

You won't be running cheap pads if you want the cars to run a long session without overheating, so don't budget on £20 pattern pads!

Tire=30000GBP (Golf, not Atom)

This is where an old Golf (or an MX5) really wins with 15" rims. You can fit cheap tyres for £30-35/corner and they'll last a day or two on track. That's cheap tyre costs as bigger tyres or slicks can cost you over £1000/set.

Car maintenance=15000GBP

If you can get away with this, I'll be stunned. Things break. You'll get a couple of thousand miles from wheel bearings on a Mk2 Golf when clattering the kerbs on track. You've covered brakes and tyres separately, but you'll need to replace oil frequently and things will break. On top of that, you'll have crashes that mean repairs to cars and sometimes replacements too. A small bump into the tyres that smashes a headlight, crumples the slam panel, dents the bonnet and bends a wing will cost you £500 to fix on the cheap once painted.

Salary=10000GBP

That seems low. To take 20 cars to the track, you're going to need at least 3 HGV transporters with drivers. You'll need a small team of mechanics (two should suffice), a crew to sign punters on and do drivers' briefings, some instructors (how much instruction before a beginner can be let loose?), a recovery crew, an ambulance crew and marshals (even using observers and a safety car, you'll need ~15). That's about 30 people, so probably more like £100k than £10k for 30 days. For reference, looking at the signing on sheets, 56 staff were required to run an event last weekend.

Tax=20000GBP

No idea where this comes from. VAT? Corporation tax? PAYE?

[theblackangus]

The black angus, thanks for your computations but on the initial level capital expenditures are not considered (it is a rule).That is why i have not mentioned all data you have provided. Also, if you are interested in it, you can make a sensitivity analysis to find out positive and then negative scenario. In addition, all businesses start from the ground(5-10 people). You can not just come and create an Apple or Microsoft by hiring 1000 people. Especially if you are a student. Consider this fact please

You started with the computations. People were just trying to point out to you 30-50GBP per hour goal would barely cover fuel.
My computations had no capital expenditures, only on going operational costs. I merely mentioned that you are not taking some capital expenditures and some re-occurring operational costs into account yet. I was just looking at the items you proposed and the costs to break them down to a level of more detailed understanding, to help show you where the calculations you ball parked are low even at a conservative guess. This helps understand where the challenges are to achieve your goals.

Where did I say to build a Microsoft or Apple? I inferred nothing of this, unless you consider the 13 staff "Microsoft" level.

You rent a track both with hiring a crew. It is illogical. Also while starting a business you aim to reduce all types of costs (economies of scope). As bdr29 wrote, it is important to start from something small. I also knew that. And that is why your computations are for the next level.We can non use ''Microsoft'' level numbers for a start-up........ I havent started with computations. If i am not mistaken, FactsOnly did it. Also i wrote thrice that i need to find better solutions, meaning that i agree with brake,fuel,tire costs. And you do not need to repeat again that it is impossible to do because of the huge expenditures. To sum up - Don't blame, offer solutions.

My bad I did mistake FactsOnly post for you!
However you also mistake the intent of my post, which was to help you see where you challenges are. No where did I say impossible.
You have had the idea, but you don't fully understand where your hurdles lie.
You keep talking about the next level, but that is where you are effectively at.
You have and idea which you decided there is demand for, so what do you do next? Start understanding what your idea means in the real world.

Workflow: Idea -> Understand challenges -> Fix challenges -> Product.

And again if you call a few employees "Microsoft" level that is your interpretation not mine, I'm not sure how you jump to Microsoft from what I posted. Do you think you can do everything w/o employees?

I just went to "rent a car" track day recently the outfit rented 10 cars and had 15+ employee's that were busy all the time.
They rented the track but had to bring their own crew to man the event. Maybe my break down of crew could use some tweaking but the point is you need people to run the event. I know my local track doesn't come with safety crew, race organizers, people handle check in and car assignment, people to go over the Rules of Engagement with the racers, etc.
All of those things and understanding how you can "be more creative" is part of the process.

Heck the local go-kart track has 5 or 6 employees active all the time.