Amateur racing culture

Please discuss here all your remarks and pose your questions about all racing series, except Formula One. Both technical and other questions about GP2, Touring cars, IRL, LMS, ...
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andylaurence
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Joined: 19 Jul 2011, 15:35

Re: Amateur racing culture

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In fairness, it could well be possible to reduce the costs substantially. If you're aiming for road car performance, then a small lightweight single seater could achieve it with great fuel economy. I did a few simulations in Optimum Lap that suggested a reduction in frontal area with an increase in drag coefficient allied to a significant weight loss could see a car running at the same performance levels on the same cheap tyres with 40% of the power. If you're aiming for MX5 performance, that's less than 50bhp or small bike engine territory. Perhaps a Jedi with a gas-powered and rev-limited 600cc engine would get you somewhere near the fuel economy you want. I can imagine that might hit 0.5l/minute and you can pick them up for £6k.

mrluke
mrluke
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£6k is a bit toppy really when you could pick up mx5s for £500-£800, though once you get some safety gear in there you are probably looking closer to £2k. Theres no way you can rent out a race series of anything for a casual amount of money.

Really what we are getting to here is karting.

Nothing new under the sun as they say.

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bdr529
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Joined: 08 Apr 2011, 19:49
Location: Canada

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With out looking at the cost for Renting the track, cost of cars, Insurance or Safety equipment
And using 2 known and fixed cost Wadges / Fuel and 1 estimated cost Overhead
-Use of £6.50 minimum wadge for 21+ as average ( $$ /hour maybe more and could be less )
-Use of 4 workers ( 1x manager, 1x car repair 1x looking after customers 1x helper/floater )
-Use of £25 for Overhead ( estimated running cost for 9 cars over 20 days of operation, including personal
............................... costs for fuel/phone, advertising. £25 is a low estimate )

Image

Based on these 3 costs alone the business would have to rent out 9(£40) cars per day to break even (£370)

Now if we add the cost of renting track ABC at £240.00/ day that equates to renting 6 more cars and we know that means renting 2 more to cover that extra fuel cost. now the total running cost for the day is £715.00 = 18 cars at £ 40/ day.
You will need 1 more worker and that's an extra £58, that's 1 more car to rent.
New Total £773.00 per day in running cost = 19 cars rented at £ 40 per day

This should give some one a good template to adjust the rental price and running cost to figure out the best compromise

RacingEngineering
RacingEngineering
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Re: Amateur racing culture

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Bdr29, so my estimations without analysis were right. As i understood for 9 hours i have to give 19 rides(absolutely possible). I dont know what car you had used as a landmark, but it proves that this idea is not that unrealistic. You have not mentioned some overheads but even if we ll increase it by 40%, it will require not 19 but 25 rides, that is still possible. Thanks for encouraging and proving my point.

Andy, thanks as well

SectorOne, there is a loan roof in UK, for your information. And i am aware that i will need to prove my point to investors in order to get their money. Now i think superficially without going into details. Please dont think that i will just go to them and ask money with no reason. I am a perfectionist and i am aware that i have to mention even the molecular details. Dont worry. On this level i think just about technical solutions and financial feasibility.Why to prepare 30 if it will not work? First it has to be possible with 1 car then to move on for 30. If it is impossible i will not go for it. But looking to the majority of computations provided here, especially in previous message, i realize that my idea is not that unrealistic with a right approach and strategy. Reducing the costs as much as it is possible, but keeping fun and racing spirit on the same level.

mrluke, read bdr29's message please. Maybe you are right but bdr has a point based on computations.

Also 1 technical idea came to my mind. I dont know how crazy it is but i will write. Why not to increase the size of Kart by 50%-100%. I hope it can work in order to reach required speed and power for my project. Really, so many solutions we can try and test in order to find best choice. I still dont understand why so many people strictly deny this idea.

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bdr529
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RacingEngineering wrote:Bdr29, so my estimations without analysis were right. As i understood for 9 hours i have to give 19 rides(absolutely possible). I dont know what car you had used as a landmark, but it proves that this idea is not that unrealistic. You have not mentioned some overheads but even if we ll increase it by 40%, it will require not 19 but 25 rides, that is still possible. Thanks for encouraging and proving my point.
I'm glad the work I'v done to prove your point has given you some encouragement to keep going.
How about a thumbs up for the work, or are you proving my point that your ungrateful

Now before you go off to spend the company profits, you should take a good look at it one more time
A reminder of what I left out of my calculations and my noted low estimation for overhead cost as previously stated
1) - Cost of Track, Cars, Insurance, and Safety not included
2) - missing overhead costs go under incidentals and etc...
3) - estimation of overhead £25 is a low

Cost of Overhead : I used a 2001 VW golf tire size 195/65/R15 and cheap brake pads £40/car
I based my £125/week estimation on replacing every tire and brake pad once per year, £40/tire, £40/brakes front & back
20 cars x 4 tires = 80 tires x £ 40 = £3200, Brakes 20 cars x £40 = £800 total £4000 or £80/week, that leaves £45 a week to cover things like mechanical car parts, advertising, personal costs fuel/phone, £45/week is very low for this

Cost of Track rental : I used £ 240.00 because it was easy to correlate into the rental of 6 cars. I can't imagine being able to rent a track for £ 240/ day, but I'll go with it for now

Cost of Safety : Helmet £35, Neck Collar £15 = £50/car x 20 = £1000 divided by 50 weeks = £20 per week

Cost of cars : The cheapest 20 VW golfs on autotrader.uk came to a total of £ 7723.00 round up = £ 8000 (£400/car avg)

Cost of Debt ; whether you use a bank or family/ friends for a loan, interest is around 4% the cheapest you'll get
20 cars cost £ 7723 + interest = £ 8032/ 50 weeks = £160/ per week in Debt payment
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Basing everything on a cost per week to get a more realistic look at expenditures
And please remember I have left out Insurance, Legal costs, Taxes and a lot of other things
Image
4 facts to remember ---20 cars x 5 days = 100 rentals per week, 50 work weeks per year and £4220.00 is break even
all cost provided by me have been rounded up for ease of math and/or are just estimates

That means £4220 divided by 100 rentals = £42.20 That's your new Rental cost for a day
100 rentals x 50 weeks = 5000 rentals per year needed to break even
If you wanted to make a profit of 6% approximately £250/week, you would have to charge £45/day
if you wanted to pay the debt (loan) off over 2 yrs. it would only drop your costs by £80/week

My personal view-- this business model is not sustainable based on rental fees of £42/day let a lone £45
and I'm still not taking into account the cost of Insurance, Legal costs, Taxes, and all the other costs I'v not mentioned
£5/gallon fuel can't last for ever,--£6.50/hour seems low to me, --- £40 for tires or brakes seems low to me
£240 Track rental fee is a long shot, but I can't be bothered to check and I'd bet twice that much is still way to low
getting 100 people a week I think would be difficult and sustaining that for 50 weeks is a lot to ask.

We'll discuss my consulting fee later :roll:

Facts Only
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On any type of saloon/hatchback road car you'll need to change brake pads twice per day at a cost of £60 per set. I know this from years of experience on track days.

What's not being considered here is the cost of repairing/replacing the cars when they get crashed and bashed, at £40 per hour the sort of clientel you are going to attract won't give a flip about safety or the cars.
Many moons ago I was heavily involved with a Go-Kart track, when we ran low price promotions (at about the cost level being talked about here) the sort of people who turned up could largely be considered "scum" they had no respect for property, other people or safety. They just wrecked the karts and the circuit in the end it cost more and that was with 150cc fun Karts with big bumpers, it was a nightmare, one group even deliberately ran over a marshall once and we were threatened on a few occasions. You can try to screen out the bad ones but how do you know whos going to be a knobber without some sort of phsychological and living evaluation?
If you charge less than the cost of a Go Kart session to drive a full size car on a track with no mandatory tuition or big deposit the cars won't even last the first day and your insurance costs will be through the roof within a week.

Nothing is impossible... Controlling people who couldn't care less on a race track is definitely impossible. The worst you can do is ban them but they don't care, its cost then hardly anything and they had there fun. While your left with £40 and a destroyed car.
Last edited by Facts Only on 31 Mar 2015, 14:20, edited 1 time in total.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

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andylaurence
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Re: Amateur racing culture

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Commenting on bdr's figures and why you shouldn't latch on to something just because it matches the numbers you initially thought of...

2.5 gallons (~11 litres) of fuel will not go far. At the Great Western Sprint, some cars didn't make the 3 mile course on their 3-4 litre tanks. You won't get a 20 minute session out of 2.5 gallons, even if you're in a little fuel efficient 999cc sports racer (source: I have a 999cc sports racer). Also, the figures are for 6 cars, yet the final number of cars was triple that. If you can run for 20 minutes on that 2.5 gallon tank, you'll have 2 hours of run time spread over all your cars (about 2 laps per car).

You will not get away with 4 workers. The barest track session I've seen used 2 people to run the event and it was cones on an airfield at 20-30mph.

Track rental is out by an order of magnitude. You might be able to rent part of an airfield (Throckmoreton, for example) for that money, but you'll also need to get toilets and food brought in for your customers. That will set you back another £200. The cheapest track with facilities that I know of is the test track at Haynes Motor Museum, but it's still almost 4 figures to rent and is a karting track. Llandow is more like a proper circuit and about £1000+VAT mid-week.

Then there's the paramedic/ambulance, which was £520 at the last event I have figures for. Tot those figures up now.

Scaling up a kart by 50-100% is what I was suggesting with the rev-limited Jedi. It will do 120mph, will scare the living daylights out of anyone who's never driven a single seater before and still use very little fuel.

If you want to offer £40 experiences, then you need to drop the amount of track time accordingly. Look at all the supercar experiences - they offer about 5 minutes in a supercar for £40 or so. Make that an MX5 and you could probably offer double the track time for the same money. Come up with an interesting format (like the Top Gear Star in a Reasonably Priced Car) and you might find something that people actually want to do.

The official Top Gear experience is undoubtedly expensive at £175 but these people used to do a similar experience for half the price but no longer do, probably from lack of demand.

RacingEngineering
RacingEngineering
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bdr29, ''Andy, thanks as well''. ''As well''. And no consultancy man, just partnership. I am open to partnership.

FactsOnly, i think that saloon car idea is not good as well. At least by now with superficial analysis. But i have a good solution for safety. Inside roll bars, but also outside rolls as in Whelen cars in USA ( http://www.nationalspeedsportnews.com/w ... AM2505.jpg ) . I think it will not be that difficult to cover the car with it and it will help to reduce the level of damage.

Andy, i like the idea with Jedi but i think it is cost demanding. Dont know. Need to analyse.

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bdr529
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Just a reminder and I can't stress this loud enough I know, I left out a great deal of expenditures and my estimations are way off, how else was I supposed to make the numbers work on £40/day

Just adding the actual cost of Track rental, complete Insurance costs, and the real cost of Fuel used,
I would say my estimation is off by 500%,. I say nothing less then £199 would/could work

Just an example of how I round down the actual cost in RacingEngineering favor
£50 helmet /neck collar, Real price £60.40 -- Helmet £34.99, Neck collar £25.50, lidsdirect.co.uk & demon-tweeks.co.uk
Same goes for Tires, Brake pads there the cheapest POS I could find in the UK and then I round down the price and no tax

The only numbers I gave that are 100% accurate are the following Minimum wadge is £6.50/hour, for 21 years and up.
The 20 cheapest VW Golfs on Autotrader UK site yesterday March 30th came to a total of £7723.00 that's true.

Real world analogy
TESCO sells a loaf of white bread for £0.90 and cheap stuff £0.45 (their website today)
what RacingEngineering is attempting to do is sell a loaf of bread for £0.10
I don't think that can't be done even knowing the fact everyone needs/wants bread.

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Tim.Wright
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bdr529 wrote: I don't think that can't be done even knowing the fact everyone needs/wants bread.
It can be done, but he won't be making any profits...

For a (self-proclaimed) entrepreneur, your thinking is incredibly linear, 1-dimensional and and about 10 years behind the times. Not to mention the fact that you are fishing for ideas on an online forum. Isn't that the opposite of entrepreneurship? You want to make a cheap product by squeezing costs in anyway that you can. Its been done before and its at saturation point - in every market from groceries to motorsport parts. You are trying to get blood out of a stone if you want to reduce costs more.

If you want to turn a profit with this project you need to ACTUALLY think outside of the box instead of just talking about it. Buzz phrases like 'nothing is impossible' 'solutions not answers' etc don't mean squat if you can't back them up with actions or at the very least some decent ideas...

You need another activity running in parallel, bringing in money to offset the loss you will make by hiring out racecars for 20GBP. Governments are prepared to throw money at companies involved in interesting research. Tap into some of that and develop an ultra efficient race car/tires/batteries like you have suggested are only a "solution" away. You mentioned that you have a track already? Look into hiring it out as a proving ground for the local professional and non-professional automotive and motorsport industries. Create a research or technical partnership with an engineering company swapping your track time for their design and construction work.

Honestly there are a million ways to generate the money you need to start and be sustainable. Merely doing what everyone else are doing but trying to do it cheaper ISN'T one of them...
Not the engineer at Force India

RacingEngineering
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I agree with you Tim. As you have mentioned, it will be tough to generate a profit. But my aim is not a profit. Sustainability for me is more success indicator than money. As you can see, i wrote a lot about new solutions and doing the same but cheaper will not gain me a competitive advantage and sustainability. I am aware

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bdr529
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Tim.Wright wrote:
bdr529 wrote: I don't think that can't be done even knowing the fact everyone needs/wants bread.
It can be done, but he won't be making any profits...
I was being polite, in reality you couldn't afford to turn on the lights, 10% profit on 10¢ is 1¢
that would equate to $100 profit for every 10,000 loafs of bread sold

I like your idea's of extra revenue, they hadn't crossed my mind, always good to have an extra revenue stream,
I don't know if he has a track already, if not, I don't think the Track owners would allow for 3rd party rental,
Who knows though as RacingEngineering has not been so forthcoming with any data or research of his own,
it seems we're the ones doing all the work and he's just the Idea Man
Last edited by bdr529 on 31 Mar 2015, 21:49, edited 4 times in total.

Facts Only
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RacingEngineering wrote: FactsOnly, i think that saloon car idea is not good as well. At least by now with superficial analysis. But i have a good solution for safety. Inside roll bars, but also outside rolls as in Whelen cars in USA ( http://www.nationalspeedsportnews.com/w ... AM2505.jpg ) . I think it will not be that difficult to cover the car with it and it will help to reduce the level of damage.
What you've done there is invent banger racing. You can actually go and do this for a day for £120 already:

https://treatme.co.uk/experiences/extreme-dodgems
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

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andylaurence
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RacingEngineering wrote:bdr29, ''Andy, thanks as well''. ''As well''. And no consultancy man, just partnership. I am open to partnership.

FactsOnly, i think that saloon car idea is not good as well. At least by now with superficial analysis. But i have a good solution for safety. Inside roll bars, but also outside rolls as in Whelen cars in USA ( http://www.nationalspeedsportnews.com/w ... AM2505.jpg ) . I think it will not be that difficult to cover the car with it and it will help to reduce the level of damage.

Andy, i like the idea with Jedi but i think it is cost demanding. Dont know. Need to analyse.
Fitting a cage to the outside of a saloon car will ruin your fuel economy and cost as much to do as just buying a Jedi. The purchase cost of the car isn't going to factor much in your figures. Let's assume you run a car for 600 days and it is worthless at the end - your £6k Jedi has only cost you £10/day. If you assume your Jedi uses 0.5l/min of fuel vs 1l/min for your saloon (and your saloon cost you nothing), the Jedi is cheaper after 18 minutes on track each day. I think it's fair to say you'll expect to get more than 18 minutes of track time from each car.

RacingEngineering
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I have no track, i also have no strong technical background. All that i have is love to autosport,creativity and an entrepreneurial background.

It is difficult for my to analyse all information you provide here. Especially when it is contradictive sometimes. But i will try to figure it out. I will prepare a table with all ideas,solutions, with all pros n cons and calculations. It will be better to see everything in 1 page.