Mclaren Honda 2015

[j2004p]

whatever man, but they screwed up huge for this season and they really did not have to. It is just unexcusable how completely wrong they got it.

What rationale do you have for saying that they did not have to?

Should they have stayed as a customer team to Mercedes forever and be relegated to second tier engine maps and fuel not specifically formulated for the PU?

Remember that Williams were closer to the pace of Mercedes compared to Mclaren only because Mercedes were providing them with the same Petronas fuel as they were using. Mclaren were left to get Mobil to try and formulate something which would make the merc engine work for them (losing around 60bhp in just that area IIRC).

Becoming a factory team was the only option if Mclaren wanted to become a serious threat again.

[mclaren111]

Really like the Lime Green color on the car:

[Gaz.]

Mclaren used Mobil1 because they are sponsored by them, not because Mercedes wouldn't supply Petronas oils and I doubt Mercedes AMG could veto a supplier to a team in any case. The Mobil1 sponsorship was worth more to Mclaren than the TV money for 4th place instead of 5th.

[j2004p]

The point I'm making is that Mercedes (and by virtue of association Williams) used a fuel designed in-house alongside the PU to maximise the potency of that PU.

Mclaren had to use Mobil1 (due to sponsorship as you correctly state) who did not have the benefit of being able to develop the fuel alongside the PU to maximise its potential.

That's one of the key reasons why Mclaren (and also Force India) did not have the same benefit from the Mercedes PU's performance advantage as that shown by Mercedes themselves and Williams.

Mobil now have the chance to work alongside Honda to develop the fuel specifically for the PU whilst on the Dyno, something Mclaren would never have had the opportunity to do, as all development of the Mobil fuel / Mercedes PU combination would have needed to be track tested.

[Gaz.]

The point I'm making is that Mercedes (and by virtue of association Williams) used a fuel designed in-house alongside the PU to maximise the potency of that PU.

Mclaren had to use Mobil1 (due to sponsorship as you correctly state) who did not have the benefit of being able to develop the fuel alongside the PU to maximise its potential.

That's one of the key reasons why Mclaren (and also Force India) did not have the same benefit from the Mercedes PU's performance advantage as that shown by Mercedes themselves and Williams.

Mobil now have the chance to work alongside Honda to develop the fuel specifically for the PU whilst on the Dyno, something Mclaren would never have had the opportunity to do, as all development of the Mobil fuel / Mercedes PU combination would have needed to be track tested.

Force India also used Petronas oils, and Williams are sponsored by Petrobas so they clearly could make a business agreement with their sponsors despite a conflict of interest.

I fully understand why Mclaren want to be a works team, but I don't think it is worth getting too hung up over fuel & lubricants from a previous season.

[j2004p]

I fully understand why Mclaren want to be a works team, but I don't think it is worth getting too hung up over fuel & lubricants from a previous season.

Fuel was just one of the key reasons I could think of, essentially it's about ensuring you have access to first hand information to aid development which Mercedes would not provide to a customer team.

[FoxHound]

I fully understand why Mclaren want to be a works team, but I don't think it is worth getting too hung up over fuel & lubricants from a previous season.

Fuel was just one of the key reasons I could think of, essentially it's about ensuring you have access to first hand information to aid development which Mercedes would not provide to a customer team.

The difference is negligible, if all teams are using the same fuels and lubrication. Maps are down to the individual team, so some will be better than others, but it is not for Mercedes to tell any team which maps to run other than within the safe operating parameters of the PU.
If Mercedes have the best maps, that is because they have used the information from the chassis/PU/aero/tyre relationship better.

Witness the superior EBD on McLaren's car to that of the Mercedes car.

Mercedes do provide first hand information to all their customers, and it is in fact a contractual obligation for parity in Williams and Force India's case.

It is also not down to Mercedes to ensure McLaren can run their engine at optimum with Mobil fuels and lubricants.
They had the option to run Petronas, as each customer team do, but opted Mobil.
McLaren's choice.

[windwaves]

whatever man, but they screwed up huge for this season and they really did not have to. It is just unexcusable how completely wrong they got it.

What rationale do you have for saying that they did not have to?

Should they have stayed as a customer team to Mercedes forever and be relegated to second tier engine maps and fuel not specifically formulated for the PU?

Remember that Williams were closer to the pace of Mercedes compared to Mclaren only because Mercedes were providing them with the same Petronas fuel as they were using. Mclaren were left to get Mobil to try and formulate something which would make the merc engine work for them (losing around 60bhp in just that area IIRC).

Becoming a factory team was the only option if Mclaren wanted to become a serious threat again.

Sorry, I thought my point was implicit, my fault I was not clear.
When I said "they did not have to" I was not referring to the switch to Honda but to the fact that they really should have done a better job. Such an expectation was based on the fact that as a top team in F1 which in addition had some benefit from observing last season they would have started this year may be not at the Merc level, but somewhere near where Ferrari, or Renault did in 2014 (the latter addressing early problems incredibly quickly). I mean who did not expect much more from the combo Mcl/Honda ?

[Manoah2u]

whatever man, but they screwed up huge for this season and they really did not have to. It is just unexcusable how completely wrong they got it.

What rationale do you have for saying that they did not have to?

Should they have stayed as a customer team to Mercedes forever and be relegated to second tier engine maps and fuel not specifically formulated for the PU?

Remember that Williams were closer to the pace of Mercedes compared to Mclaren only because Mercedes were providing them with the same Petronas fuel as they were using. Mclaren were left to get Mobil to try and formulate something which would make the merc engine work for them (losing around 60bhp in just that area IIRC).

Becoming a factory team was the only option if Mclaren wanted to become a serious threat again.

Sorry, I thought my point was implicit, my fault I was not clear.
When I said "they did not have to" I was not referring to the switch to Honda but to the fact that they really should have done a better job. Such an expectation was based on the fact that as a top team in F1 which in addition had some benefit from observing last season they would have started this year may be not at the Merc level, but somewhere near where Ferrari, or Renault did in 2014 (the latter addressing early problems incredibly quickly). I mean who did not expect much more from the combo Mcl/Honda ?

there is a huge difference in hope and expectation.

hope is not based on expectation and reality, it's based upon possibilities, and yes, there offcourse always was the possibility that Honda was fast straight away.

expectation is a different thing and frankly, anybody expecting Honda to be fast from the get-go has no sense of reality.
Expectation is based upon reality, and quite frankly, the reality is , Mclaren is actually performing as reasonably expected.

Mclaren-honda has given the fans a clear explenation why they are in the position they are in right now because their strategy and goals are not for the direct moment, but they have aimed far higher, demanding more from the team, and in reality, demanding more then the time they have to achieve those goals before the start of the 2015 season.

Mclaren has made a very wise decision; they were never expecting to go for the full glory in 2015 anyway, because of the advantage Mercedes will carry in from 2014 to 2015. So if you can already scratch the WCC and WDC away for 2015, then there will be 2nd spot, 3rd spot, etc.

Thus, the next decision will be; do we accept 2nd or 3rd spot or is it not enough for us? Mclaren already decided this years ago, because they know staying with Mercedes will simply put them in 2nd or 3rd and they have stated 2nd and 3rd is not good enough for them. So that's why they switched to Honda, with the goal of becoming 1st, as 2nd or 3rd is not good enough for them.

As they already scratched away 1st for the 2015 season, then the entire 2015 season is open for another decision; get as high up possible in 2015, or use 2015 as a development platform to bank in results for 2016, when Mercedes' advantage due to 'natural evolution' will have diminished.

So, as Mclaren-Honda is using 2015 as a stepping stone, then if we use that fact, then we can finally judge Mclaren for what they are doing. And the fact is, they are doing a very decent job in developing the car, and they are making great steps. Their qualification results in china were disappointing, but let's judge them over where it counts; the race.

Could Mclaren have done better? To think so is quite rediculous. They are a top-team housing the very best personnel and they have a very strict 'regime' - Mclaren will have done atleast exactly like they have planned, so first of all, they could have done worse. Could they have done better? again, that depends on their strategy and they explained their strategy and in this area, they are actually doing a stellar job.

Until the 2nd european race, Mclaren will remain far away from the top. That's a temporarily compromise they took, and after that 2nd race, the updates they will have implemented and improvements added will bring Mclaren to the back of the front, and by the end of the year at the middle of the front teams.

2016 Mclaren is going to fly.

arguments raised to kick down mclaren that got presented here are arguments based upon personal idealisation, not by any rationale or any form of realism of reason. thus, uncalled for.

the only team and only engine that disappoints untill now is Redbull and Renault, and looking at Toro Rosso's performance, Renault has potential. RedBull is underperforming compared to Toro Rosso by keeping in mind RedBull is team number 1 and Toro Rosso team number 2. So the real letdown is RedBull, not Mclaren.

Personal frustration is something that the word says; it's personal. So a small suggestion; keep it personal and deal with it personal.

Or, like the great Toto Wolff said; there's a wall in Jerusalem for that.

[windwaves]

Sorry, I thought my point was implicit, my fault I was not clear.
When I said "they did not have to" I was not referring to the switch to Honda but to the fact that they really should have done a better job. Such an expectation was based on the fact that as a top team in F1 which in addition had some benefit from observing last season they would have started this year may be not at the Merc level, but somewhere near where Ferrari, or Renault did in 2014 (the latter addressing early problems incredibly quickly). I mean who did not expect much more from the combo Mcl/Honda ?

there is a huge difference in hope and expectation.

hope is not based on expectation and reality, it's based upon possibilities, and yes, there offcourse always was the possibility that Honda was fast straight away.

expectation is a different thing and frankly, anybody expecting Honda to be fast from the get-go has no sense of reality.
Expectation is based upon reality, and quite frankly, the reality is , Mclaren is actually performing as reasonably expected.

Mclaren-honda has given the fans a clear explenation why they are in the position they are in right now because their strategy and goals are not for the direct moment, but they have aimed far higher, demanding more from the team, and in reality, demanding more then the time they have to achieve those goals before the start of the 2015 season.

Mclaren has made a very wise decision; they were never expecting to go for the full glory in 2015 anyway, because of the advantage Mercedes will carry in from 2014 to 2015. So if you can already scratch the WCC and WDC away for 2015, then there will be 2nd spot, 3rd spot, etc.

Thus, the next decision will be; do we accept 2nd or 3rd spot or is it not enough for us? Mclaren already decided this years ago, because they know staying with Mercedes will simply put them in 2nd or 3rd and they have stated 2nd and 3rd is not good enough for them. So that's why they switched to Honda, with the goal of becoming 1st, as 2nd or 3rd is not good enough for them.

As they already scratched away 1st for the 2015 season, then the entire 2015 season is open for another decision; get as high up possible in 2015, or use 2015 as a development platform to bank in results for 2016, when Mercedes' advantage due to 'natural evolution' will have diminished.

So, as Mclaren-Honda is using 2015 as a stepping stone, then if we use that fact, then we can finally judge Mclaren for what they are doing. And the fact is, they are doing a very decent job in developing the car, and they are making great steps. Their qualification results in china were disappointing, but let's judge them over where it counts; the race.

Could Mclaren have done better? To think so is quite rediculous. They are a top-team housing the very best personnel and they have a very strict 'regime' - Mclaren will have done atleast exactly like they have planned, so first of all, they could have done worse. Could they have done better? again, that depends on their strategy and they explained their strategy and in this area, they are actually doing a stellar job.

Until the 2nd european race, Mclaren will remain far away from the top. That's a temporarily compromise they took, and after that 2nd race, the updates they will have implemented and improvements added will bring Mclaren to the back of the front, and by the end of the year at the middle of the front teams.

2016 Mclaren is going to fly.

arguments raised to kick down mclaren that got presented here are arguments based upon personal idealisation, not by any rationale or any form of realism of reason. thus, uncalled for.

the only team and only engine that disappoints untill now is Redbull and Renault, and looking at Toro Rosso's performance, Renault has potential. RedBull is underperforming compared to Toro Rosso by keeping in mind RedBull is team number 1 and Toro Rosso team number 2. So the real letdown is RedBull, not Mclaren.

Personal frustration is something that the word says; it's personal. So a small suggestion; keep it personal and deal with it personal.

Or, like the great Toto Wolff said; there's a wall in Jerusalem for that.

I am not sure why you are quoting me : there is absolutely nothing in your post that is relevant or addresses in any way shape or form what I said. So I implore you to please be more attentive in the future with your quotes because I really do not have time to read posts like that.

I am amazed though to see that you must have met or talked to people "expecting Honda to be fast from the get-go " because I really did not think such persons would even exist, it is such an idiotic expectation !!

Now, any knowledgeable F1 aficionado would have never expected McL to perform at such embarrassing levels. And my friend, it's got nothing to do with emotions, it is all in the results. You did notice results, right ? Including a few hours ago in a place called China ?

[zeph]

2016 Mclaren is going to fly.

Sounds like hope, rather than expectation.

[Manoah2u]

I am not sure why you are quoting me :

since you are the one claiming the above, you get quoted. your words, which adressed.
since you are able to read and write here i can't put it to any reading error, and thus can only mean delibaratly trying
to change reality.

a reminder; scroll to your own post to see why you were quoted.

there is absolutely nothing in your post that is relevant or addresses in any way shape or form what I said. So I implore you to please be more attentive in the future with your quotes because I really do not have time to read posts like that.

actually, everything in my post is relevant and adresses your claims as my reply is solely put because of your negativity against mclaren, based on, well, nothing. and if you don't have time to read then you probably wouldn't have time to reply either.

I am amazed though to see that you must have met or talked to people "expecting Honda to be fast from the get-go " because I really did not think such persons would even exist, it is such an idiotic expectation !!

so you then contradict yourself that you actually did read the entire post above which you stated you did not just 2 lines above that. alright. as for that final line, i think you have thus now judged your own expectations.

Now, any knowledgeable F1 aficionado would have never expected McL to perform at such embarrassing levels. And my friend, it's got nothing to do with emotions, it is all in the results. You did notice results, right ? Including a few hours ago in a place called China ?

Actually, every knowledgeable F1 afictionado expecteded Mclaren to perform as they are because a knowledgeable F1 'afictionado' would take into account all the factors into the team. Therefor, Mclaren is not performing on embarrasing levels. Mclaren made embarassing mistakes in the past, yes - mistakes that cost wins from their drivers due to simple yet repetetive mistakes in pitstop errors or startgrid errors. To put it more simple; improving by several seconds through just 3 races versus leaving a blower inside Jenson's sidepod @ Monaco is a clear difference where somthing could be branded as 'embarassing'.

Results are Mclaren made big steps again and as Alonso and Button stated, they are ready to up the power and get where they are aiming to be. If you concider Jenson was able to battle Pastor Maldonado in a dogfight which was housing a overly more powerfull Mercedes engine, a car that - by Williams own words against Bottas -, was faster than the Williams, then Mclaren has actually done a impressive race.

So perhaps i'll answer you by your own question; you did see the results, did you? or do you even watch F1?

[Manoah2u]

2016 Mclaren is going to fly.

Sounds like hope, rather than expectation.

True that though.

[windwaves]

I am not sure why you are quoting me :

since you are the one claiming the above, you get quoted. your words, which adressed.
since you are able to read and write here i can't put it to any reading error, and thus can only mean delibaratly trying
to change reality.

a reminder; scroll to your own post to see why you were quoted.

there is absolutely nothing in your post that is relevant or addresses in any way shape or form what I said. So I implore you to please be more attentive in the future with your quotes because I really do not have time to read posts like that.

actually, everything in my post is relevant and adresses your claims as my reply is solely put because of your negativity against mclaren, based on, well, nothing. and if you don't have time to read then you probably wouldn't have time to reply either.

I am amazed though to see that you must have met or talked to people "expecting Honda to be fast from the get-go " because I really did not think such persons would even exist, it is such an idiotic expectation !!

so you then contradict yourself that you actually did read the entire post above which you stated you did not just 2 lines above that. alright. as for that final line, i think you have thus now judged your own expectations.

Now, any knowledgeable F1 aficionado would have never expected McL to perform at such embarrassing levels. And my friend, it's got nothing to do with emotions, it is all in the results. You did notice results, right ? Including a few hours ago in a place called China ?

Actually, every knowledgeable F1 afictionado expecteded Mclaren to perform as they are because a knowledgeable F1 'afictionado' would take into account all the factors into the team. Therefor, Mclaren is not performing on embarrasing levels. Mclaren made embarassing mistakes in the past, yes - mistakes that cost wins from their drivers due to simple yet repetetive mistakes in pitstop errors or startgrid errors. To put it more simple; improving by several seconds through just 3 races versus leaving a blower inside Jenson's sidepod @ Monaco is a clear difference where somthing could be branded as 'embarassing'.

Results are Mclaren made big steps again and as Alonso and Button stated, they are ready to up the power and get where they are aiming to be. If you concider Jenson was able to battle Pastor Maldonado in a dogfight which was housing a overly more powerfull Mercedes engine, a car that - by Williams own words against Bottas -, was faster than the Williams, then Mclaren has actually done a impressive race.

So perhaps i'll answer you by your own question; you did see the results, did you? or do you even watch F1?

my negativity ? ahahah .... sorry could not help. From now on I will speak of the positive results of McL who is not last every single time thanks to Manor. I am glad to understand that for you that is a positive.

Sorry man. By the way, you still miserably fail to quote any of my posts, words or sentences where I claim that Mcl should have been fast right away. Of course you cannot, I have never said any such idiotic thing !!!! lol

Anyhow, look, I am happy that you are happy with McL results so far and I shall leave it at that. Alonso after all is also quite positive as he stated, he is hoping China was the last time they were lapped. Oh well, we shall see. I surely hope so.

[windwaves]

2016 Mclaren is going to fly.

Sounds like hope, rather than expectation.

I would call it dreaming, really. Certainly my dream too, but nothing more than that, I like to be realistic.