Mclaren Honda 2015

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AxialTurbine
AxialTurbine
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Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

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Miguel wrote: Another reason is money.
This.

I doubt McLaren can really afford to write off a whole season, it would cost them millions in prize money and sponsorship. At the end of the day they are a business run for profit not a bottomless pit of cash

Ron Dennis and Honda will have set the expectations high, they will suck it up for now but they will need and expect to significantly close the gap to the front runners.

It matters for reputation, sponsorship and ultimately bottom line of the business. McLaren are a big team spending big money they expect to succeed.
In god we trust, everyone else brings evidence.

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

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Mesteño wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=55&v=SzLVN7YTp5c

Might this be the real gap? Probably not, but not less interesting.
think so, but the interesting about this all, is that Mclaren is able to make the biggest 'leaps' forward to close the gap compared to others [even though they initially had the biggest gap].

Where Ferrari is probably running their engines at full 2015 output, but still can use some tokens, and can improve aero,
and Renault is definately running their engines at max output, yet has tokens to use, but probably can't change much aero,
Mclaren is far from running their engine at their full output, and has still tokens to use, and can improve some aero.

According to the development programme, and a tad of hope, we might see Honda leap in front of RedBull in about 4 or 5 races, and hit the tail end of the Ferrari at the end of this season.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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Andres125sx
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Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

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bhall II wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:That´d be true if the penalties would be applied now, but not the case, they will be applied when all the allocations have been used. This means when they start to be competitive at the second half of the season with the reliability issues sorted out, then they´d be penalized for using more allocations than allowed when they were far from competitive (now), what doesn´t make sense

Better assume now you´re not competitive and will be at the back of the grid, but do not compromise your chances when you´re competitive later in the season
The package will never be competitive this season, even if by some outlandish miracle it winds up being the fastest car in the field, because the damage done to the team's points tally is already fatal.
I never talked about being competitive enough to fight for the championship :roll:

But the car will be competitive enough to equal or even improve 2014 results. It is then when they can score some points to make up the championship and earn some money too, so it would be absurd to use one PU per race now and then the second half of the season, with a competitive car, suffer some penalizations because of the PUs used on first half. That was my point
bhall II wrote:This season is over for McLaren, and the sooner they recognize that, the sooner they can put themselves on the path to recovery.
When did you hear them saying this season target is anything more than learning and preparing for 2016? I never heard them saying they´ll fight for anything in 2015
bhall II wrote: EDIT:
hollus wrote:It is almost like if they are aiming for 1 win and only 1 win in 2015, very late, when they should be preparing for 2016. Weird...
I think weird is definitely a good word for it.
I don´t find it weird at all. We all know..... well, most people know 2015 was a season to learn and prepare for 2016 because a new engine will always have lots of problems, specially when there was no pre-season and moreover when only one team use that engine (very little mileage to analyse and prepare) and your rivals are on their second season, so even if the whole package has an impressive potential, they initially will suffer so many problems their chances for any championship will be done on first races.

So 2015 is a pre-season testing, but to be sure the proyect is solid, you need to see some improvemente, you need to see if your planned learning curve is realistic or not, and for that some victory even if it´s at the end of this season is basic. That´d be the confirmation of the viability of the proyect

So IMO a victory this season, even if it´s just one single victory at the end of the season, would be the confirmation McLaren will be a title contender in 2016. I can´t find anything weird in that

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Andres125sx
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Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

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bhall II wrote:If a component didn't work immediately as intended, it was replaced again and again until the desired result was more or less achieved. This was done in lieu of investigating and addressing the actual root of any given problem, because the team's "win now" culture didn't allow anyone to take a long view of problems that might require some time to remedy. The net result is that nothing was ever truly fixed, and problems carried over from year to year.

Despite the team's ongoing issues, Boullier's comments about bringing new components to every race - "We have practically every GP a new car" - smacks of the same mentality.
You´re assumnig too many things here, it may be the opposite, they may have a completely new car designed but they´re introducing new parts step by step to learn about them, if they work as intended, what´s the real improvement, etc

Maybe you´re right and I´m wrong, but IMHO assuming a F1 team is doing things without a proper planning is anything but reasonable

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Vasconia
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Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

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Manoah2u wrote:
Mesteño wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=55&v=SzLVN7YTp5c

Might this be the real gap? Probably not, but not less interesting.
think so, but the interesting about this all, is that Mclaren is able to make the biggest 'leaps' forward to close the gap compared to others [even though they initially had the biggest gap].

Where Ferrari is probably running their engines at full 2015 output, but still can use some tokens, and can improve aero,
and Renault is definately running their engines at max output, yet has tokens to use, but probably can't change much aero,
Mclaren is far from running their engine at their full output, and has still tokens to use, and can improve some aero.

According to the development programme, and a tad of hope, we might see Honda leap in front of RedBull in about 4 or 5 races, and hit the tail end of the Ferrari at the end of this season.
This, there is still a enormous room for improvement with this engine and there some tokens to use. I think that in Barcelona we will see a great improvement.

Aero is another area to improve, but come one, firstly they have to run with the cars and then gather some data, something they have achieved in this race by the FIRST TIME with both cars. Hope they can do the same in Bahrein... [-o<

Jef Patat
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Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

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bhall II wrote: A realistic assessment of a problem and its resultant competitive limitations can also open up the door to strategies that may not seem obvious at first. As an example, I'm not quite sure I understand McLaren/Honda's PU strategy thus far, given the following: if the penalty for using more than the allotted number of PUs over the course of a season is to be docked grid places, and if the current need for reliability requires the PUs to be detuned to such a degree that the cars qualify dead-last anyway, then there is effectively no penalty for using as many PUs as you want. So, wouldn't it then make sense to push the PU to the limit every time in order to work out its problems?
Well, that just depends on the sort of issues they're having. I think there's no point in pushing to the limit if the result is the PU only lasts a couple of laps and those laps don't give enough data/info/clues to fully understand the problem. I think they are still 'learning' how their PU works in real race conditions, that means gathering data. Also, if you stress the PU to death after a couple of laps you learn nothing about the rest of the car (aero, suspension, cooling, tyres to name a few). While I do believe that data of the car not running at 'full potential' gives data that is not fully representative, I don't believe that no data is better than data.

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Mesteño
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Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

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"When Alonso came in the technical briefing, all engineers started to applaud. They didn't believe he made that qualy without any kind of settings and without knowing how the car would react"

http://www.marca.com/2015/04/14/motor/f ... 09924.html


People will speak bullsh*t, but this team is focused and together.

davidfroshanzen
davidfroshanzen
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Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

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Just wait and see what mclaren honda can to do in spain gp ,,, the second spec PU ,,, i believe they at least 3rd fastest car,,

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Thunder
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Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

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That may be a little too Optimistic.
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

windwaves
windwaves
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Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

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davidfroshanzen wrote:Just wait and see what mclaren honda can to do in spain gp ,,, the second spec PU ,,, i believe they at least 3rd fastest car,,
and this is the kind of positivism i really like !!!!!

Thank you !!! and I hope you are right .... but omg, it is going to be a bit hard

Gaz.
Gaz.
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Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

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Andres125sx wrote:
Maybe you´re right and I´m wrong, but IMHO assuming a F1 team is doing things without a proper planning is anything but reasonable
Mclaren do have form here though, in 2011 they spent all pre-season trying to get the fantail exhaust to work without damaging itself and didn't have a plan B until Australia FP1 when they abandoned the fantail for a conventional exhaust. In 2013 instead of using the MP4-27 or an evolution/B-spec of it they tried a clean sheet design that was slower than its predecessor until Hungary and Witmarsh did say to the media he considered bring back the '27 at one point but decided to try and see the '28 project through, and then they stopped development of that car after Monza anyway to focus on the MP4-29.

Mclaren can do some wonderful things, but they also do some inexplicably odd things too.
Forza Jules

Richard
Richard
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Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
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Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

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davidfroshanzen wrote:Just wait and see what mclaren honda can to do in spain gp ,,, the second spec PU ,,, i believe they at least 3rd fastest car,,
Do you also do tarot card reading at fun fairs?

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

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davidfroshanzen wrote:Just wait and see what mclaren honda can to do in spain gp ,,, the second spec PU ,,, i believe they at least 3rd fastest car,,
got the right lottery numbers for this weekend? :mrgreen:

amyway. i think that's still a tad too enthusiastic. i do believe they will advance quite far but also expect the 'second spec' pu to have some minor start-problems - well, rather the way the engine will work with the electric parts, which are generally their current problems.

to be fair though, they had a lot of electric problems but it were mostly sensor problems. Their packaging is very tight, and i kinda think they might even be intending to pack it even tighter; this is 'just' their first new-era V6T hybrid engine.

They have intentionally built it very tight, but i have a feeling they've even held back to be able to understand things better.

offcourse there are dozens of issues that come up thanks to this 'daring' approach. However, take it on the chin and learn from it; not by changing back to be less tight; but by improving the sensors and materials that can't take the current strain. i think this is exactly what Mclaren is doing, and in the end they probably benefit that their technology is built in-house; they can make it completely customised to their package, and they have all the know how which isn't shared with 'outsider' companies.

let's just say; sensor X can't handle the vibrations and heat caused by the area it's located in. f.e. right next to the exhaust log.

to solve this you can either; improve isolation from the exhaust log [ at the loss of weight benefit and perhaps power ],
improve cooling by enlarging the area around it [ at the loss of packaging and aero benefit ]
or construct a sensor that CAN take the beat [ at the loss of time and research money ].
result is a far more advanced sensor.

if sensors really are the things that take the beating, and not critical engine components, then well, Honda actually has done a extremly impressive job.

Sensors sending out less clear signals due to the tighter package can be solved by either filtering out [add a translation code to the reading computer] or improve the way the signal is sent, or perhaps use an entire different approach of sending info through the sensor.

the message to alonso that they did not have correct data on fuel measurement is interesting, too. That means they were playing around with fuel usage and probably dealt with unforeseen consequences or sensor errors that could not be resolved. Alonso still managed to finish the race with enough fuel in the tank, without using more then the allowed fuel flow ratio, AND managed to crawl right back up to Button whilst he got behind really far from him during the race, AND all whilst having tire wear issues which were not aero-related but were power transfer related.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

max_speed
max_speed
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Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

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Mesteño wrote:"When Alonso came in the technical briefing, all engineers started to applaud. They didn't believe he made that qualy without any kind of settings and without knowing how the car would react"

http://www.marca.com/2015/04/14/motor/f ... 09924.html


People will speak bullsh*t, but this team is focused and together.
i believe same. now a days if you go through F1 related articles , previous drivers comments be it niki lauda , jean alesi or respected newspapers ,almost everyone is criticizing Alonso/Mclaren and speaking great in length about ferrari/vettel. it appears mclaren achievements and greatness has been forgotten. i guess there is some kind of agenda against mclaren/Honda , ferrari ego was bruised that alonso left them despite being persuaded many time and italian media and paid mouths are in mood of using current situation to criticize mclaren , feels sad

Earnard Beccelstone
Earnard Beccelstone
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Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

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I think 2015 is now a write-off for the team. The question for me is: will McLaren Honda be able to produce a competitive car-engine combination by the end of the season?

The rules for 2016 are reasonable static, from what I recall. So, I consider 2015 to be an extended test session for the team - run up as much miles on the MP-30 as possible, get the powerplant properly sorted, understand the car and tyre dynamics.

If I was in charge, my main concern would be a further reduction in budget.

After two consecutive 5th places in the championship, the team must be feeling the reduced amount of money coming in from FOM sources. Compared to their usual 3rd or 2nd, McLaren will be down somewhere around 12-25 million per season. If they finish 7th or 8th this season, that's another 10-15 million they'll be short of.