New 2015 fuel flow Directive

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Jordan44
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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I'm no expert on this but interested to hear what you think.

Do we know which teams have complied with the new regulation this GP weekend?

More than likely Ferrari have just done great work over the winter and this track suited their car. But considering the rumours that circulated after the race about fuel flow, could it be that Mercedes complied with the new directive this weekend, and that has reduced the gap? We saw a reduction in top speed but they still seemed quick in the aero sector. And none of the Mercedes customers looked particularly racey this weekend, with Williams complaining they've lost some straight line speed.

I just found it very odd how noticeably slow they were on the straights. Maybe their new chassis just has too much drag when they crank up the downforce.

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Shrieker
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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slugmeister wrote:This my first post, so apologies for jumping straight in, but this topic touched on my F1 and fuel injection interests and experience.

I was at the Melbourne GP and a few things were of note. Working backwards to my point, the Renaults had horrible driveability and there was talk from drivers etc of engine mapping issues. Renault apparently made some late changes to their engine mapping. You could actually hear the problems at the track, on corner exit for example.

To my ears too, and some others, it did sound like the Merc and Ferrari had more revs at some parts of the track this year, but that's not been technically confirmed.

Im going to hypothesise that Merc and probably Ferrrari are indeed (somehow) using more fuel flow than is legal for certain parts of the rev range. The fuel flow through the meter remains legal at all times, and ECU log analysis looks legitimate too. However, through some trick at certain times more fuel can be injected than is legal based on some accumulation downstream of the meter. However, the trick is injection mapping related, or to utilise it the injection mapping must use legitimate sensor input (that is logged) but sort of ignore that and inject on what is really happening ( higher fuel pressure or more air mass or something).

Where is this coming from? Well I think Renault know how to get the increased fuel pressure, or that at certain times there will be higher fuel pressure, but they cant get an injection map that works reliably to use it. In short, Renault aren't programmatically able to exploit the trick yet, probably because injection mapping relies on using sensor input and religiously believing it - that is, its difficult programmatically. I think at the Melbourne GP they had some injection maps that were "experimental" (and probably they know aren't legitimate) and decided to go with them because they realised how far behind they were without this trick. However, these maps weren't quite working and Ricciardo et al struggled with "spiky power delivery" (sic). I even think that is possibly what lunched Ricciardos engine.

Post race Horner starts whining that Renault haven't delivered on their promises (to "cheat" as well?) and that theyre needs to be equalisation. Marko starts threatening to leave F1. Then, someone must have let the cat out of the bag, probably RBR or Renault to the FIA about some fuel flow trick, and bang a new directive comes out - pseudo equalisation? Any thoughts?
Jock Clear moved from Merc to Ferrari didn't he. Could've taken some secrets over to Maranello :wink:
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Sevach
Sevach
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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slugmeister wrote:This my first post, so apologies for jumping straight in, but this topic touched on my F1 and fuel injection interests and experience.

I was at the Melbourne GP and a few things were of note. Working backwards to my point, the Renaults had horrible driveability and there was talk from drivers etc of engine mapping issues. Renault apparently made some late changes to their engine mapping. You could actually hear the problems at the track, on corner exit for example.

To my ears too, and some others, it did sound like the Merc and Ferrari had more revs at some parts of the track this year, but that's not been technically confirmed.

Im going to hypothesise that Merc and probably Ferrrari are indeed (somehow) using more fuel flow than is legal for certain parts of the rev range. The fuel flow through the meter remains legal at all times, and ECU log analysis looks legitimate too. However, through some trick at certain times more fuel can be injected than is legal based on some accumulation downstream of the meter. However, the trick is injection mapping related, or to utilise it the injection mapping must use legitimate sensor input (that is logged) but sort of ignore that and inject on what is really happening ( higher fuel pressure or more air mass or something).

Where is this coming from? Well I think Renault know how to get the increased fuel pressure, or that at certain times there will be higher fuel pressure, but they cant get an injection map that works reliably to use it. In short, Renault aren't programmatically able to exploit the trick yet, probably because injection mapping relies on using sensor input and religiously believing it - that is, its difficult programmatically. I think at the Melbourne GP they had some injection maps that were "experimental" (and probably they know aren't legitimate) and decided to go with them because they realised how far behind they were without this trick. However, these maps weren't quite working and Ricciardo et al struggled with "spiky power delivery" (sic). I even think that is possibly what lunched Ricciardos engine.

Post race Horner starts whining that Renault haven't delivered on their promises (to "cheat" as well?) and that theyre needs to be equalisation. Marko starts threatening to leave F1. Then, someone must have let the cat out of the bag, probably RBR or Renault to the FIA about some fuel flow trick, and bang a new directive comes out - pseudo equalisation? Any thoughts?
That is a good theory on why Renault would mess up that bad in Melbourne and being OK (weak but OK) in Malaysia.

The new rules will begin to be inforced in China, so no reason to blame Mercedes "poor" performance on it, though it was odd to see Ferrari smoking them on the high speed sectors.

The curiousity to see how Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault will perform in China is huge.

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Jordan44
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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Sevach wrote:
slugmeister wrote:This my first post, so apologies for jumping straight in, but this topic touched on my F1 and fuel injection interests and experience.

I was at the Melbourne GP and a few things were of note. Working backwards to my point, the Renaults had horrible driveability and there was talk from drivers etc of engine mapping issues. Renault apparently made some late changes to their engine mapping. You could actually hear the problems at the track, on corner exit for example.

To my ears too, and some others, it did sound like the Merc and Ferrari had more revs at some parts of the track this year, but that's not been technically confirmed.

Im going to hypothesise that Merc and probably Ferrrari are indeed (somehow) using more fuel flow than is legal for certain parts of the rev range. The fuel flow through the meter remains legal at all times, and ECU log analysis looks legitimate too. However, through some trick at certain times more fuel can be injected than is legal based on some accumulation downstream of the meter. However, the trick is injection mapping related, or to utilise it the injection mapping must use legitimate sensor input (that is logged) but sort of ignore that and inject on what is really happening ( higher fuel pressure or more air mass or something).

Where is this coming from? Well I think Renault know how to get the increased fuel pressure, or that at certain times there will be higher fuel pressure, but they cant get an injection map that works reliably to use it. In short, Renault aren't programmatically able to exploit the trick yet, probably because injection mapping relies on using sensor input and religiously believing it - that is, its difficult programmatically. I think at the Melbourne GP they had some injection maps that were "experimental" (and probably they know aren't legitimate) and decided to go with them because they realised how far behind they were without this trick. However, these maps weren't quite working and Ricciardo et al struggled with "spiky power delivery" (sic). I even think that is possibly what lunched Ricciardos engine.

Post race Horner starts whining that Renault haven't delivered on their promises (to "cheat" as well?) and that theyre needs to be equalisation. Marko starts threatening to leave F1. Then, someone must have let the cat out of the bag, probably RBR or Renault to the FIA about some fuel flow trick, and bang a new directive comes out - pseudo equalisation? Any thoughts?
That is a good theory on why Renault would mess up that bad in Melbourne and being OK (weak but OK) in Malaysia.

The new rules will begin to be inforced in China, so no reason to blame Mercedes "poor" performance on it, though it was odd to see Ferrari smoking them on the high speed sectors.

The curiousity to see how Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault will perform in China is huge.
The new rules are inforced in China but didn't the FIA recommend they comply before? If they knew it was worth a large amount of their advantage then they probably would have wanted to get ready as soon as possible, especially since China is a circuit with extremely long straights.

.poz
.poz
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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What if the trick is not in the engine but is in the fuel ? How they test fuel density for meter calibration ?

If they test it at atmospheric pressure with a VERY compressible fuel additive (polymeric ?) you can easily cheat the meter.

The meter is calibrated for a low density fuel so you can use more l/h to reach the 100kg/h but as you reach the trigger pressure for the addictive the density change so you actually use more than 100kg/h.

ojlopez
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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J0rd4n wrote:I'm no expert on this but interested to hear what you think.

Do we know which teams have complied with the new regulation this GP weekend?

More than likely Ferrari have just done great work over the winter and this track suited their car. But considering the rumours that circulated after the race about fuel flow, could it be that Mercedes complied with the new directive this weekend, and that has reduced the gap? We saw a reduction in top speed but they still seemed quick in the aero sector. And none of the Mercedes customers looked particularly racey this weekend, with Williams complaining they've lost some straight line speed.

I just found it very odd how noticeably slow they were on the straights. Maybe their new chassis just has too much drag when they crank up the downforce.
My thoughts exactly. It seems strange that since FIA introduced the new directive the gap has closed. Could it be that Mercedes was indeed cheating?

astracrazy
astracrazy
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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Regardless if they did or didn't do it. Exploiting a loop hole isn't cheating because no rule has actually been broken - it's being able to think outside the box when others can't. A directive simply closes the loop hole for the future.

Richard
Richard
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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ojlopez wrote:It seems strange that since FIA introduced the new directive the gap has closed. Could it be that Mercedes was indeed cheating?
It's too early to say that, the three tracks and conditions couldn't have been more dissimilar. We'd need to compare Montreal with Melbourne.

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godlameroso
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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The gap has maintained at around .6 seconds per lap average between Mercedes and Ferrari, it was the same in testing, it was the same in the first second and third races, and it was the same in China.
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gruntguru
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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astracrazy wrote:Regardless if they did or didn't do it. Exploiting a loop hole isn't cheating because no rule has actually been broken - it's being able to think outside the box when others can't. A directive simply closes the loop hole for the future.
The directive doesn't close a loophole. I closes down a means of cheating. The rule says "no accumulator", the directive stops teams from using other components (fuel lines, heaters etc) as accumulators.
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wuzak
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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gruntguru wrote:
astracrazy wrote:Regardless if they did or didn't do it. Exploiting a loop hole isn't cheating because no rule has actually been broken - it's being able to think outside the box when others can't. A directive simply closes the loop hole for the future.
The directive doesn't close a loophole. I closes down a means of cheating. The rule says "no accumulator", the directive stops teams from using other components (fuel lines, heaters etc) as accumulators.
Indeed.

5.1.4 Fuel mass flow must not exceed 100kg/h.
5.1.5 Below 10500rpm the fuel mass flow must not exceed Q (kg/h) = 0.009 N(rpm)+ 5.5.

It doesn't specify that the mass flow rate must be that at the measurement point. Rather that it must not exceed the limit at all.

and this rule makes it clear that thee is no loophole to explot:

5.10.5 Any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow rate after the measurement point is prohibited.

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ian_s
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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for some reason I am thinking that all this has happened after Renault tried and failed to get this working right, and they assumed Ferrari and Mercedes were both doing it right.
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mikeerfol
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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iotar__
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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There's a bit more about it here: http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-c ... ms-568197/
“We do not consider it necessary to define here what we consider constant, we feel it will be more practical to discuss any concerns we have with the relevant team(s) if and when issues arise.”

When they say teams do they mean all Mercedes engine teams or the only main one?
Last edited by iotar__ on 10 May 2015, 10:44, edited 1 time in total.

Harsha
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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If im not mistaken FIA now set the minimum fuel flow rate limit or is there any thing to this