Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Blackout]

Question to those who are savvy with the regs. Would a double sided compressor be allowed by the rules. Technically it is still only one stage of compression but simply with 2 inlets to the turbocharger compressor. If this is allowed then it would be a way to drastically downsize the size of the compressor.

Edit: I can see the possibility of a mixed flow compressor. Don't know to much about it though.

Good question.

[FW17]

What happened to the trigger happy Mod?

Either move the engine discussions from this thread or close the Honda Engine thread

[Abarth]

in Alonso's car the Honda was stuttering like traction control was in operation when he gave it some throttle, any thoughts?

They cut cylinders for part load operation.
It sounds weird, like the engine would not work properly, but it is a more energy efficient than throttling the engine.

so are the hondas throtteless?

No I don't think so, but it could be operated almost throttleless. With cylinder cutting the response is more immediate than with throttling, especially if the compressor is maintained spooled up.
But with zero torque demand (braking) throttles are better closed, it will use less electrical power (and therefore energy) to keep the turbo spooled.

[wuzak]

I don't think it's an axial compressore. If it was then there will be no room for the MGUH. If you squint yours eye a bit, you can almost see the black housing behild that oil tank think at the front of the engine.

I used to think that too but then Ferrari seems to have put in a MGU H and intercooler the V of the engine. The compressor axial or radial would still be shorter in length than a intercooler, so guess MGU H placement is possible within the V along with the Compressor

Mounting inside the Vee will limit the size of the compressor and/or force it higher up.

[Richard]

While it makes sense to have a separate PU threads for Honda, Merc, Ferrari & Renault it seems that most members end up discussing the PU in the thread for the car of the of same name.

This seems to be particularly problematic for Honda. Would members prefer:

• Keep the separate Honda PU and remove PU debate from the MP30 thread. Moving posts really annoys a lot of members and takes a lot of mod effort.

or

• Acknowledge we can't hold back the tide and leave the PU chat in the MP30 thread. I'd close the Honda PU thread in this case.

[/i]

[mikeerfol]

I'd say keep the Honda PU thread.

[ian_s]

i thought the rules specified that they must have throttles. if thats the case i dont see any advantage to having them and not using them


edit: i stand corrected. i've just searched the technical regulations and it doesn't mandate throttles now. at least not that i can find!

[Thunder]

hmm i tend to keep the PU Thread. I guess there are some very knowlegeable People that can really help the technical Apsects of a PU Thread that would otherwise never look in the MP4-30 Thread, that would be a shame.

But yes, telling the People to post something that would, rulewise, perfectly fit in the Macca thread to not post it there can be confusing.

[ian_s]

as Honda engines are only run by Mclaren, it makes sense to keep it all in the same thread. for the other manufacturers where the engines are in different cars, it needs to be separate

[Facts Only]

Hi,

First time post...

I haven't seen this mentioned previously so apologies if I've missed it, but is it legal to run the compressor and turbine slanted through the V of the engine ?
(i.e. not parallel to the ground/reference plane)

http://i.imgur.com/0Vh7WYe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0Vh7WYe.jpg

If so, would this allow them to shorten the overall length of the ICS but run a larger diameter than would fit perpendicularly into the V and also lower the CoG ?

I'm sure the rules say that it has to be paralelle withe the car centre line and within a certain distance. Also it would make oil control an absolute nightmare (its already incredibly difficult to get right)

[FW17]

Mounting inside the Vee will limit the size of the compressor and/or force it higher up.

Generally believed that a larger compressor helps in more energy recovery so it is thought larger the better

what is perhaps less well known is that Ferrari has an ace up its sleeve in races this year on the ERS and turbo sides of the power unit. In particular they have a very strong battery and a small compressor, which is very efficient and rival engineers say that this means they can run at a reasonably aggressive preset mode for the whole race, whereas Mercedes has a lower regime in its race mode, to which it sometimes need to descend in races.

This quote from James Allan (a parrot of popular paddock opinion) seems to contradict the general consensus here.

[GoranF1]

Here.

[Abarth]

i thought the rules specified that they must have throttles. if thats the case i dont see any advantage to having them and not using them[...]

In part load conditions, it is usually more efficient to not throttling the engine but cut cylinders.
However, I don't know if really aggressive cylinder cutting could lead to unwanted resonances in the powertrain.

Perhaps they are just doing it the simple way, cutting three cylinders for torque demand <50% and then switching to 6 cylinders and contemporarily closing the throttle at torque demand >= 50%. And vice versa.

This is done in road cars too for lowering consumption, but usually by closing the the valves, which is not permitted in these engines:

5.9.2 Variable valve timing and variable valve lift profile systems are not permitted

[frosty125]

Hi,

First time post...

I haven't seen this mentioned previously so apologies if I've missed it, but is it legal to run the compressor and turbine slanted through the V of the engine ?
(i.e. not parallel to the ground/reference plane)

http://i.imgur.com/0Vh7WYe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0Vh7WYe.jpg

If so, would this allow them to shorten the overall length of the ICS but run a larger diameter than would fit perpendicularly into the V and also lower the CoG ?

This is not permissible

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to
a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and
within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft
assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the
same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it.

Trying to work out if a compressor design similar the dual boost Honeywell would be able to be compliant with the following definition.

1.28 Compressor Inlet :
A component containing a duct of closed cross section through which all combustion air
enters any compressor; the duct must extend upstream of any part of any variable geometry
device permitted by Article 5.9.
1.29 Compressor Outlet :
A component containing a duct of closed cross section through which all combustion air exits
any compressor.

Easier to have both engine and car here

[Lucky]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118626