Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[n4rf]

I was given this link on another forum.

It suggests an elongated axial compressor, which possibly sounds like a diagonal compressor.

Interesting for sure.
Ever since the idea fo the axial compressore showed up in rumors I've been thinking how a "longer" compressor wheel and blades would work, obviously tapered to the high pressure side (both the housing and the wheel/blades on the wheel). However, it seems desperately prone to stalling if you ask me. On the other hand, that sort of stuff is not exaclty my wheel house, so my feeling might be off. Additionally, if anyone can finde a clever solution for this problem via CFD simulation it is someone within F1.

One particular thing in the posted article, however, seems illogical to me. Namely making the inlet plenum out of aluminium to reduce the heat transfer between the top mounted radiator and the inlet air. I mean, as metals in F1 cars go, aluminium is the best at conduction heat there is. Carbon fibre is far worse at it (or better if you want to insulate) and can be very neatly coated with ceramic insulations that can even be made reflective as well. Hence the silver or gold coating on a lot of cars these days (if you're interested, check out zircotec, they've got some nice illustrations and videos).
And also: a carbon fibre part would not necessarily be that much more difficult to manufacture, just way more time consuming. I'd bet that McLaren wouldn't even flinch at the request to make this exact part out of carbon fibre. So, why make it out of aluminium? Seems awfully difficult to manufacture to me (milling big aluminium parts with very thin walls is a bitch). Structural integrity should be better with a properly designed carbon fibre part as well. Maybe there are some weird load bearing paths in it, I don't know. If that thing is indeed the inlet plenum with full charge pressure inside it (as mentioned before, I'd say not), it might be an issue with blowing the carbon fibre piece apart. But, again, I'm sure that McLaren would know how to build this thing out of carbon fibre with considerable weight savings. Might just be a case of "let's deal with weight later".

[maccafan]

I was given this link on another forum.

It suggests an elongated axial compressor, which possibly sounds like a diagonal compressor.

Thnx for the link. Very interesting article. If this is true then we should see McLarenHonda make huge strides in performance once they tune this engine for maximum performance/drivability.

[Fer.Fan]

I was given this link on another forum.

It suggests an elongated axial compressor, which possibly sounds like a diagonal compressor.

Thnx for the link. Very interesting article. If this is true then we should see McLarenHonda make huge strides in performance once they tune this engine for maximum performance/drivability.

Interesting indeed but all of you are forgetting something, what about power, amount of HP? Packaging OK but It seems to me Honda PU is to week. Smaller compressor = less HP.
Why is Honda PU better than Ferrari/Mercedes? Don´t forget Ferrari/Mercedes are making progress all the time, they are not waiting for Honda to catch up.

[Charlatan]

There is another option however, a volumetric vane-blower, but I'm not certain that it would be feasible for these Rpms?



Fast forward to 1:20;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT5HCpGIxZA

[proteus]

I was just looking at the picture and i considered that 90 degree exit would be better for this turbine. I aint an engineer so correct me if im wrong, and sorry for a crapy ilustration of the solution.

[mikeerfol]

Interesting article about the Honda PU, but does anyone know if this site is reliable? http://richlandf1.com/?p=36492

[PlatinumZealot]

It IS a mixed flow compressor no matter how you look at it. Even your own post suggest that it is.

If you look at the unit as a whole, yes it is a mixed flow compressor, comprising three axial stages and one centrifugal stage.

None of the individual stages are, however, mixed flow.

The last stage is mixed flow, just look at the twist of the blades...

There are purely radial flow compressors out there. You can look them up. I did this stuff school man.. lol a long time ago though.

But better we go back to discussion the Honda Engine... the semantics are beside the point, we were finding what can fit in the V- of the engine and still give that boost.

[PlatinumZealot]

It IS a mixed flow compressor no matter how you look at it. Even your own post suggest that it is.

No common turbocharger compressors are correctly termed centrifugal compressors. They are not actually mixed flow. There is only a minor axial component at the inlet, same as there always has been with centrifugal compressors.

Mixed flow means a transition from axial to radial or vice-versa. The common turbo compressor has inducers that work axially then the flow runs down diffusers between blades that sweep the flow radially. check Edis' post.

[theWPTformula]

Interesting article about the Honda PU, but does anyone know if this site is reliable? http://richlandf1.com/?p=36492

I wrote this article for Richland Not be biased or anything, but we [collectively] are reliable! It's obviously up to you if you agree with my views, though.

[ringo]

The point is, if the turbo is in fact revolutionary (/pun) then our current foundation is itself incomplete. We cannot make assumptions about a new tech, or even a new implementation based on older tech that inherently violates the tech regs for this year. If the compressor is axial, then it would stand to reason that the engine which had a hard homologation date, and 4 races under its belt is legal.

Traditional Axial compressors would be illegal. Any multistage reduction would appear to contravene the tech regs. So how if its axial could you compress the fluid within the ruleset? Is scarbs using the appropriate terminology for the tech? Didnt Graham Hill race a turbine engine in the 60s (completely off topic but..)?

I think we need clarity on staging.. From my extensive knowledge (lol), a single stage axial != single stage radial..

afaik a single stage axial, has both a rotor and 'nozzle' (which looks a lot like another rotor and is generally fixed).. depending on how the regs are interpreted, honda can get creative through the diameter of the fins for both components of the stage. Also the depth of the fins may not be as shallow as you would see in an aerospace application which need multiple stages to achieve thrust, which is a wholly different requirement than atmos compression for increased combustion. So if we change those parameters, our assumptions about compression rates (which are based on tech from another application, so its not nearly 1:1) and efficiency are inapplicable.

Our analysis cannot be conventional if what were being told is true, which is still itself up for debate.

I think the rules basically constrain you to centrifugal design or radial. It's not likely you will have a single stage axial design with any meaningful pressure ratio developed.
Reason i say this, is that based on the reasons why a compressor even works, the geometry of it, a single stage axial will simply not do enough work on the air. Axial designs are almost always multi stage because of the blade geometry.

The air enters axially, then it must be worked on by the blade surfaces in the same direction, how will this be done with any efficiency with just one blade profile?
The only other thing my mind can construe is a screw type design, something similar to a supercharger but with a single screw. But it still makes it impossible for there to be just one stage, because of how the housing must be for the rotor to rotate.

So to me, Honda has a centrifugal or radial compressor, and it's black in colour and at the front of the engine, maybe below and behind the oil tank.

[maccafan]

The point is, if the turbo is in fact revolutionary (/pun) then our current foundation is itself incomplete. We cannot make assumptions about a new tech, or even a new implementation based on older tech that inherently violates the tech regs for this year. If the compressor is axial, then it would stand to reason that the engine which had a hard homologation date, and 4 races under its belt is legal.

Traditional Axial compressors would be illegal. Any multistage reduction would appear to contravene the tech regs. So how if its axial could you compress the fluid within the ruleset? Is scarbs using the appropriate terminology for the tech? Didnt Graham Hill race a turbine engine in the 60s (completely off topic but..)?

I think we need clarity on staging.. From my extensive knowledge (lol), a single stage axial != single stage radial..

afaik a single stage axial, has both a rotor and 'nozzle' (which looks a lot like another rotor and is generally fixed).. depending on how the regs are interpreted, honda can get creative through the diameter of the fins for both components of the stage. Also the depth of the fins may not be as shallow as you would see in an aerospace application which need multiple stages to achieve thrust, which is a wholly different requirement than atmos compression for increased combustion. So if we change those parameters, our assumptions about compression rates (which are based on tech from another application, so its not nearly 1:1) and efficiency are inapplicable.

Our analysis cannot be conventional if what were being told is true, which is still itself up for debate.

I think the rules basically constrain you to centrifugal design or radial. It's not likely you will have a single stage axial design with any meaningful pressure ratio developed.
Reason i say this, is that based on the reasons why a compressor even works, the geometry of it, a single stage axial will simply not do enough work on the air. Axial designs are almost always multi stage because of the blade geometry.

The air enters axially, then it must be worked on by the blade surfaces in the same direction, how will this be done with any efficiency with just one blade profile?
The only other thing my mind can construe is a screw type design, something similar to a supercharger but with a single screw. But it still makes it impossible for there to be just one stage, because of how the housing must be for the rotor to rotate.

So to me, Honda has a centrifugal or radial compressor, and it's black in colour and at the front of the engine, maybe below and behind the oil tank.

You have a very good point here. It does sound unlikely that with the imposed restrictions at hand that it would be something that disruptive as axial compressor. However disruptive technologies tend to find their way when you least anticipate them. We have from several sources heard that Honda have introduced new technology in their engine and it seems that axial compressor is the most likely one.

If they do use axial compressor what i am interested in are the characteristics of the engine when it comes to the harvesting of energy and deployment of that energy. It would be great if someone with more insight in ERS area to provide some theory on where would the gain be. Because if the limitation lies in axial compressor not achieveing enough pressure could the gain come from better energy management and that gain is large enough to keep axial compressor?

[Vortex37]

Scarbs says that the key to Mercedes superiority is the layout of the turbo/MGU/compressor. Then people repeatedly claim that this is the silver bullet(pun) that gives them a zillion more horsepower. Ron Dennis says that the Honda engine uses technology that has never been used in F1 before, and Scarbs says that the Honda uses an axial compressor. Everybody and their granny in the blogosphere jumps on that as the revolutionary element. Hmm! So what makes me think of a herd of sheep.

Flak jacket at the ready. Lets say that there is a grain of truth in the axial statement. Then how about multiple instances of the compressor side of the dual boost turbocharger. These could still be regarded as a single stage, but having multiple elements. If not legal, then the simple version shown in the photo below. I posted about this type of turbo in the main thread, what seems like ages ago. Uploaded a paper about the technology and its advantages to dropcanvas. 1.1mb pdf file size.

[ringo]

Further to the single screw compressor:...

http://www.emersonclimate.com/europe/Do ... N_1209.pdf

however even though this thing has one input shaft, i am sure the other 2 shafts for the side gears break the rules. Further, there are too many moving parts so efficiency will not be high for sure.

[denktank]

maybe they are using a continuous blade compressor.

[ringo]

That's not possible without the rotor crashing into the housing as soon as you start up. You see there will be no means to ram the air down the volute in an axial direction. The centrifugal design can do work on the air by turning it through 90 degrees into the expanding housing. Very difficult to do axially with a continuous blade, it wont be contacting the air beyond the entrance. I've been trying to invent one a while ago. nice little brain teaser, but near impossible.

This may be boring for the thread, but this is simply what i see:


You see that black circular thing?