W06 Front Wing Discussion

[turbof1]

Don't be so impatient, everything start at the begining yunno
I didn't begin with your area of interest that is the endplate area.
Pressure? you mean total pressure ?

The main part of my answer is : it's a proof of feasibility, it's not finished, i fine tune the workflow, it's a shame that you don't even recognise the work i did, i'm not the only stubborn in this place.

For the matter, seeing Bhall being dragged into the project is something positive at the very least. Even though he'll take every chance to handwave "this is utterly blasphemically wrong!", you caught his interest and he'll keep very close tabs on this . Somewhere deep within his brain you've tickled his subconcious that can't wait to see the model completed. Take the positives from it; he made excellent highlights on the wing which you can use as reference later on in the development of the cad render.

You are doing a fantastic job. You certainly don't have to rush things; built the model and test it as you see fit. I agree with you to do intermediary test to see if there's nothing truly out of the ordinary. If we didn't saw for example a Y250 vortex at this point, then there would be reason to worry.

[chuckdanny]

Thanks turbof1!
May i call you yoda ? you are the wise person here! May the force be with you, you don't have an easy task.

[bhall II]

Actually the suction peak is not where you think it is like on an old school wing.

How can you possibly know? You're not actually modelling the wing.

Are you simulating a rolling road? A simulated stationary road surface has a simulated boundary layer that strongly interacts with a simulated wing in simulated ground effect, despite the fact that it doesn't even exist in real-world conditions.

Are you even simulating a road at all? Ground effect sorta depends upon it, yanno?

You cannot, under any circumstances, draw even the slightest of conclusions here. It's just not possible, and anyone who reads this stuff will be entirely misled.

I've been trying to impress upon readers that there is virtually no way whatsoever to do what is being attempted. (Yet, you two have still left chuckdanny- and turbof1-shaped holes in the brick wall that is reality as a result of your combined zeal to rush headlong into the impossible.)

Change the name of the thread from "W06 Front Wing Discussion" to "Front Wing Mental Masturbation," and I'd have no objections whatsoever. Far be it from me to ever get in the way of that!

[Moose]

Yep, as bhall says, the most you can hope to get out of this exercise is some pretty pictures. You could make some very minor changes to that wing (but still have it look similar to Merc's), and get a completely different effect going on.

[chuckdanny]

Are you simulating a rolling road?

Of course i do! And the discrepancies between usual ways of modeling a moving ground and reality is less than 1% with an h/c ratio >0.3%

You like documents? you should read this one :
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1 ... 9.11015280

I like to take physical risks it's my way of doing base jumping

[bhall II]

Of course i do! And the discrepancies between usual ways of modeling a moving ground and reality is less than 1% with an h/c ratio >0.3%

Turbo, will you please rename this thread so I can step way from it, somewhat secure in the knowledge that those who read it won't make the mistake of assuming its contents amount to anything more than science fiction?

[turbof1]

Of course i do! And the discrepancies between usual ways of modeling a moving ground and reality is less than 1% with an h/c ratio >0.3%

Turbo, will you please rename this thread so I can step way from it, somewhat secure in the knowledge that those who read it won't make the mistake of assuming its contents amount to anything more than science fiction?

Yes and no; before the CFD analysis discussion was already there, about the Mercedes W06 Front Wing. And we are still studying a wing based on the W06 wing (I'm making no claims/comments on representation).

I'll cut you halfway there. I do think you shouldn't be this harsh; nobody is making claims how well this simulates the W06 front wing. I still very much believe this is a great effort from which we can learn from, even if we can't inmediately correlate things back to one specific wing in real life.

[bhall II]

How about "W06-based Fantasy'"?

You can call it "Ben's an Asshole," and it wouldn't bother me in the least, because it would say just as much about the actual W06 as anything else here.

[turbof1]

How about "W06-based Fantasy'"?

You can call it "Ben's an Asshole," and it wouldn't bother me in the least, because it would say just as much about the actual W06 as anything else here.

Ben, the sarcastic humor is charming, but let's not overdo it either . Putting the never-ending "this is a fantasy fairytale" message aside (there's only so many times you can say that before it looses its credibility), your input has been good. It's up to you, but for what I think having your contribution in the future is certainly a plus.

[chuckdanny]

He's losing his nerves, he fears what's coming! A whole questioning of what he's trying to explain since...
Look how he's already preparing his arguments to save his situation, there will be no mercy

[bhall II]

I may have said this before, but I'm gonna say it again:

I now completely understand why this forum can't keep a formally trained aeronautical engineer around for more than a month or two at a time. It's because there are so many folks here who know just enough about aerodynamics to get themselves into trouble, but not nearly enough to recognize it when it happens, and the end result is always the same: an inexplicable series of debates where at least one party, if not both, put forth hypotheses that violate the known laws of the universe, and because no one seems to know any better, the --- just goes on and on and on and on...

Psychology describes the phenomenon like this...

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability to be much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude.

(Been there, done that.)

To wit, this makes no sense...

And the discrepancies between usual ways of modeling a moving ground and reality is less than 1% with an h/c ratio >0.3%

...because it's a statement that's been haphazardly shorn from its proper context and then egregiously misappropriated in an attempt to avoid saying, "I don't know what I'm doing." I can empathize with a that to certain extent, because I've been in that boat a few times myself. But, damn.

I genuinely mean no disrespect to anyone. I just don't know how to get my point across, because everything else I've said has had no effect.

EDIT:

[Just_a_fan]

you don't need a engineering team or a huge server room to get good accurate results for simple models.

Indeed so. The model in question here is not simple, however.

Basically saying, Chuckdanny can get realistic results if his model is good enough. Even to just see a few trends, it's not like scientific reasearch or rocket design so accuracy is not critical for his demonstration.

The model isn't good enough - that's basically bhall's point!

What we have is an accurate result of an inaccurate model of a real-life system. The model is very well done, and we all applaud the work done on it, but it is not a model of the W06's front wing. Not by a large margin.

And accuracy is rather critical when the whole premise behind this topic was to try to understand what the W06's wing is doing to the airflow, why it's doing it and how that is useful to improve the car's performance.

[Steven]

Let me add my two cents.

First of all, wonderful effort on the front wing drawing. Stunning, and I would be very interested to see that simulated.

However, as said before, even though it's an attempt at a copy of the W06 front wing, the complexities cannot be underestimated, and the CFD results will differ greatly from what Mercedes get from their front wing. Trying to explain how it works by hand of our results in CFD on this wing may make us all look a bit presumptuous. It doesn't prevent us however to join forces and try to combine elements into a model that is sort of a real car (simplified, but still, better than a single wing).

Still, I encourage this kind of projects, but given their possibly troubled correlation with the real deal, this should be treated as an engineering project. It's something different than discussing the real front wing.

[chuckdanny]

You are very good at seeing the differences between a not finish cad and the real model
Are you equipped with eyes? That's very good, high technology, who invented it we don't know...

this is not a train

[chuckdanny]

But hey! while you are doing absolutly nothing but critisize, i've got to do all the work and understand how wing shedd vortices interact with wheel trailing vortices to tame the outboard one preventing it from repulsing the inboard one and doing so putting all the dirt under the carpet



Do i have to specify that ground is moving and wheel rotating?

Do you really think that the best way to have the big picture of a complex interacting system is to put all at once and either it works and you don't know why or it diverge (hit or miss like Platinumzealot says)