Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[wuzak]

Agree. I think they have just drawn a smooth curve through the data points (one for each stage.)

OTOH the total pressure (static plus dynamic) might increase progressively in the rotor blade section as energy is imparted but should not increase in the stator section.

Nice find BTW.

I think they can get some pressure rise in the stator section.

[redoctober89]

Given that Honda have split the turbo like Merc, could there be more room to package the compressor volute in a different position between the V

The example I have given is mixed flow.

[dren]

What about this:
http://www.ramgen.com/tech_shock_rampressor.html

Interesting claims, but I couldn't find anywhere they actually use them or pictures of actual test compressors. It was all models and theory. It also looks like they are aiming at CO2 capture, primarily funded by government organizations.

[shady]

Continuous blade compressor

http://i.imgur.com/XKzqYCP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RvUYePi.jpg

Oooh, interesting!

That is not likely to have a sufficiently high PR.

These are just examples of how you can adapt the idea of an axial compressor, into a single stage. Its an illustration of how an implementation could look given the rumors within the rule set. evaluating a CAD file quantitatively seems to be putting the cart before the horse.

[Lucky]

http://en.f1i.com/magazine/10369-hondas ... r0.twitter

[guffe]

http://en.f1i.com/magazine/10369-hondas ... r0.twitter

I'm still not convinced of the idea of single stage axial compressor for ICE charging, the pressure ratio would be minimal and the stalling of the compressor in off-throttle conditions should be at least problematic. Also the packaging of the compressor intake in the layout of the article is not very ideal as you are creating unnecessary pressure losses by turning the pressurised flow 180°. I would have put the intake on the back side of the compressor and blown the flow towards the front.

I would bet my money on the double sided centrifucal compressor and I think that would be a radical design as well .

[trinidefender]

http://en.f1i.com/magazine/10369-hondas ... r0.twitter

Yet another article that people will run with and use as evidence that Honda are using an axial compressor. Don't worry that this statement was a copy paste from an article scarbs wrote. Yet from his tweets scarbs himself doesn't even seem to be sure of the type of compressor. That is the problem when journalists play engineer, they like to disregard things like physics and just run with an idea regardless on how improbable it is.

I laughed when they said that having the capped fuel flow rate means that they don't need to run as much boost. The other engines run that much boost because that is where their engines operate most efficiently and create the most power. Not to mention the fact that the number he quoted was 3.5 bar absolute, compared to 1.2 to 1.4 bar absolute for a single stage axial compressor, yea didn't think so.

Okay rant over, I just dislike it when one journalist who has many readers says the way something MIGHT be and then everybody else runs with the idea and touts it as fact.

[stevesingo]

Based on the following assumptions...

AFR-14.7:1
VE 120%
RPM 10500

I calculate 3.1Bar absolute.

Or from the following assumptions

Base N/A BMEP of 15Bar which delivers 264bhp from 1500cc at 10500rpm.
ICE output of 750bhp

I calculate 3.05Bar absolute.

I belive they are at the top end of the required boos levels at 10500rpm. They may run leaner and therefore higher boost at lower engine speeds.

[Jef Patat]

Okay rant over, I just dislike it when one journalist who has many readers says the way something MIGHT be and then everybody else runs with the idea and touts it as fact.

Indeed, the problem is these journalists bring their assumptions as 'news', make them sound as facts. You say 'might', but IMHO the tone of the article was facts. After that all kind of armchair specialists start discussing their assumptions with the first assumption an were off into oblivion. Some things that are written here are really interesting but most probably have nothing to do with the engine at all.

[aleks_ader]

Based on the following assumptions...

AFR-14.7:1
VE 120%
RPM 10500

I calculate 3.1Bar absolute.

Or from the following assumptions

Base N/A BMEP of 15Bar which delivers 264bhp from 1500cc at 10500rpm.
ICE output of 750bhp

I calculate 3.05Bar absolute.

I belive they are at the top end of the required boos levels at 10500rpm. They may run leaner and therefore higher boost at lower engine speeds.

Sorry how do yo get in sencond iterration work? Compare N/A BMEP vs turbocharget sure cannot work together so easilly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_effective_pressure

According url data i get 223 kW for 17 bar for standard turbocharget engine under 10050 RPM with 1,5 litre capacity? I dont get the connection there, what i m missed? Where is the difference? Higher BMEP maybe?

[aleks_ader]

Even then when i turn around the formula i get 42 bar of BMEP for 562 kW (750 HP). Is this possible? Yes i know Agera engine goes up to 32 bar but had no experience witt that...

[stevesingo]

Based on the following assumptions...

AFR-14.7:1
VE 120%
RPM 10500

I calculate 3.1Bar absolute.

Or from the following assumptions

Base N/A BMEP of 15Bar which delivers 264bhp from 1500cc at 10500rpm.
ICE output of 750bhp

I calculate 3.05Bar absolute. should read 2.84Bar

I belive they are at the top end of the required boos levels at 10500rpm. They may run leaner and therefore higher boost at lower engine speeds.

Sorry how do yo get in sencond iterration work? Compare N/A BMEP vs turbocharget sure cannot work together so easilly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_effective_pressure

According url data i get 223 kW for 17 bar for standard turbocharget engine under 10050 RPM with 1,5 litre capacity? I dont get the connection there, what i m missed? Where is the difference? Higher BMEP maybe?

There is a typo in my original post

Using this as a reference http://www.profblairandassociates.com/p ... basics.pdf

Working in the "assumption" that the unboosted ICE would achieve a BMEP of 15Bar

15Bar, 1500cc and 10500rpm we get 197kW or 264bhp.

Blair states on P2 that for a FI ICE we multiply the BMEP by the boost ratio which is the same as dividing the target boosted bhp by the non boosted bhp- 750/264=2.84Bar.

So your 42BAR is correct as 15*2.84=42.6Bar.

Some thing I have been thinking of are...

If the MGU-H is applying a load to the turbine, this will increase backpressure and therefore likely to reduce cylinder filling and BMEP. There must be a fine line between producing electrical power from the MGU-H and choking the exhaust off where the power generation is costing more ICE output than MGU-K input generated by harvested MGU-H and feeding direct to MGU=K.

Not simple really.

[amho]

I did some calculation to estimate power difference between Honda & Mercedes engine based on their top end speed @ Bahrain qualifying.
I assumed that both cars have the save drag coefficient of : Cd*A=1.5 m^2 (Although we know that probably has lower drag by considering sharply tapered end (zero design)).
Air density: 1.225
Rolling coefficient: 0.015
Mercedes top speed: 335.8 km/h
Honda's top speed:320.9 km/h
by considering the mentioned assumptions, the power difference is more than 128 bhp at wheel.
Do u think that Honda will be able to close the power gap after defeating reliability problems?

[amho]

I did some calculation to estimate power difference between Honda & Mercedes engine based on their top end speed @ Bahrain qualifying.
I assumed that both cars have the save drag coefficient of : Cd*A=1.5 m^2 (Although we know that probably Mclaren has lower drag by considering sharply tapered end (zero design)).
Air density: 1.225
Rolling coefficient: 0.015
Mercedes top speed: 335.8 km/h
Honda's top speed:320.9 km/h
by considering the mentioned assumptions, the power difference is more than 128 bhp at wheel.
Do u think that Honda will be able to close the power gap after defeating reliability problems?

[godlameroso]

Not likely, I'm willing to bet they stay roughly at the same position all year, they may climb to the top of the midfield by the end of the year but they just won't have the straight line speed to keep up with Ferrari or Mercedes. I think they made design decisions they can't undo until next year, and that they'll be able to craft a much better power unit. But who knows maybe I'm wrong, and McLaren take a step forward in Spain, then another in around Suzuka.