Refuelling 2017

[TzeiTzei]

Refuelling. Just another gimmick to spice up the show. I think that f1 is beginning to suffer from a spice overdose.

[Vary]

I simply can't sede the point in banning refuelling when the cars already nave To stop to chance tires...

[bhall II]

I remain of the opinion that refueling has no place in modern F1, and it would merely turn F1 into even more of a chess game.

Fair enough.

I'll leave you with this...



It is what it is. So, why not make it all faster?

I simply can't sede the point in banning refuelling when the cars already nave To stop to chance tires...

I know, right? You'd think this would explain itself.

EDIT: grammarz

[Tim.Wright]

Ben, aren't you the one warning people that correlation does not imply causation?







Via http://www.tylervigen.com

[bhall II]

Ben, aren't you the one warning people that correlation does not imply causation?

Absolutely. Everyone is free to draw his/her own conclusions here.

I see a paradigm in which overtaking, or "on-track action," is much more closely aligned with engine variety and gimmicks than it is with refueling. Even if that position wasn't clearly supported by historical trends, it's still far and away the most logical outcome.

Similar engines = similar power = similar fuel consumption = similar fuel loads = similar optimum strategies = conditions diametrically opposed to the basic need for performance differentials in order to facilitate overtaking.

It is what it is.

[Tim.Wright]

I personally remember many occasions where one car would cruise up to the back of another and then just sit there and wait for the fuel stops in order to take the place.

Whether the root cause was refuelling or the messy aero is probably open to discussion...

[bhall II]

I remember that as well. However, instead of refueling or "dirty air," I ascribe it to the natural tendency for rival designs to converge upon the optimum.

From a post I made in another thread...

As an example, here are the qualifying times for the 2008 French Grand Prix. Even if those cars were in no way influenced by aerodynamics [or fuel loads], the narrow but nonetheless firm margins between them would still make overtaking very, very difficult.

EDIT: Look at the cars. Tight rules and the usual zero-sum game have conspired to produce machinery so eerily similar that they all might as well be clones. This is why, despite the refueling ban, DRS, and Pirelli-putty tires, overtaking is currently in the midst of its sharpest decline in 30+ years.

[f1316]

As I say, bhall has basically said the main points , but to summarise my thoughts in as succinct a way as I can:

- tis a far finer thing to have a result that is in doubt throughout the race because of more scope for strategy than to have lots of overtaking which is only happening because people are using tyres that fall apart easily and are at different stages of life (and very often the slower person lets the faster one through)

- however, I believe that it should be possible for a car that has managed to catch another to pass it, even if the pace delta is only, say, .3 of a second. It should be very difficult but possibly and that's why I believe (perhaps controversially)that Drs is a good thing and differentiates a potential new refuelling era from the previous one. It can obviously be tuned to maintain the right level of difficulty

- added however: if aerodynamics can be changed to help the following car - ground effect, for example - and Drs is no longer necessary then great, bin it. It's just there to redress the effect current aero has.

So yeah, refuelling + correctly weighted Drs = best of both worlds (maybe I could have just said that!)

[SiLo]

It will stop any undercut advantage though because although you have new tyres, you are also filled up with fuel again. Which will make it harder to overtake due to strategy...

[f1316]

No, it'll just be the reverse like before: the person staying out longer (and hence with the higher fuel load) will have the advantage and you'll get the 'overcut' effect.

[SiLo]

No, it'll just be the reverse like before: the person staying out longer (and hence with the higher fuel load) will have the advantage and you'll get the 'overcut' effect.

You used to because the tyres would last. Now you will have fresh tyres + fuels versus shot tyres - fuel.

The net effect is likely to be a stalemate, meaning there will be even less overtaking than before.

[turbof1]

Except that running on less fuel will take less out of the tyres.

Anyway, looks like refueling will not happen.

[bhall II]

Somewhat related...

In my view, far and away the biggest impediment to overtaking is circuit design. There's simply no degree of possible modification to the cars that can counteract the inherent futility of running them on circuits that predominantly feature only a single racing line, because it will forever be impossible for two cars to occupy the same space at the same time. Even Hermann Tilke's fetish for so-called "point-and-squirt" layouts has done little to improve matters, because the tendency for competitive strategies to converge upon the optimum is absolute, meaning it includes driving lines.

The problem isn't all that difficult to solve; there just doesn't seem to be any will to acknowledge it, much less address it. If you widen and add positive camber to only a handful of corners, preferably those that lead onto the longer straights, such that the difference between the the optimum and sub-optimum lines is reduced, you will have permanently solved the "structural" problem of overtaking, and DRS and silly-putty tires can be relegated to the ash heap of history. The only obstacle that will remain is the natural tendency for faster cars to start ahead of slower cars, but that problem can't be solved without complete standardization or a wholesale change to how races are organized, both of which sorta cut against the grain of F1's founding ethos.

If such a change to circuits ever occurs, I suggest we all pitch in and build a monument to the glory of whomever made it happen.

[SectorOne]

I´d rather just see them stick a spec-fan on the cars instead. Get rid of the wings and shift focus to low drag bodies instead.
All the talk of following another car-problems would stop immediately.

[bhall II]

That might solve the "dirty air" aspect of the problem, but it doesn't change the fact that it's difficult for cars of similar pace to overtake one another, regardless of aero/fuel loads/whatever.

Modify the tracks, on the other hand, and you can basically do whatever you want with the cars.

The basic nature of oval racing with multiple driving lines is why NASCAR's problems with overtaking are entirely different than those confronted by F1. NASCAR fans get pissed of when they're aren't hundreds of passes at every race.