Refuelling 2017

[Pingguest]

Bhall II points out that faster cars tend to start at the front already. In my opinion, this became even more the case after the introduction of the post-qualifying parc fermé in 2003.

[SectorOne]

That might solve the "dirty air" aspect of the problem, but it doesn't change the fact that it's difficult for cars of similar pace to overtake one another, regardless of aero/fuel loads/whatever.

Actually that´s exactly what you want.
Cars of different performance levels will eventually spread out, cars of the same performance level stay together.
That´s how you get those trains with cars where everyone is just in slipstream-heaven and the position for the lead is changed continuously because he can´t break away from the pack.

Very common to observe in lower formulas.

What you want is cars of the same performance level, immune to being in dirty air and with a good slipstream effect.
So you have a bunch of guys doing roughly the same laptimes except that everyone behind the leader gets a small and temporary performance boost in the form of a slipstream. Once overtake is done he loses that small peformance boost and so it goes on, lap after lap.

[turbof1]

You'll always have an aero disadvantage. Ground effect isn't immune to car wake, only less sensitive.

[SectorOne]

With a fan that is intended to suck air out from under the floor it can only thrive in such an environment.
Whether theres a car in front or not will have virtually no impact, in fact i would guess its probably even beneficial to have a car in front of you.

[turbof1]

With a fan that is intended to suck air out from under the floor it can only thrive in such an environment.
Whether theres a car in front or not will have virtually no impact, in fact i would guess its probably even beneficial to have a car in front of you.

Ah I see what you mean. It'll certainly increase downforce to a point where you'll have grip in excess in almost all the corners.

I'm not fond of this though. They'd all be driving Red Bull X1's. It becomes too dangerous. Using ground effect is one thing; to actually use a fan is quite another. Imagine the fan malfunctioning mid corner for instance.

[SectorOne]

Yea theres definitely some major safety problems no doubt.
Some can be solved easily like maximum DF with a spec floor and shifting focus to low drag bodies for the teams instead of this continous hunt for DF.

I still think it should be researched at least by FIA.

[ChrisF1]

That might solve the "dirty air" aspect of the problem, but it doesn't change the fact that it's difficult for cars of similar pace to overtake one another, regardless of aero/fuel loads/whatever.

So Karting, a spec formula, doesn't see overtaking?

I would rather see drivers run nose to tail a la Mansell behind Senna at Monaco 92 etc than DRS overtakes taking place half way along the pitstraight at Barcelona.

[turbof1]

That might solve the "dirty air" aspect of the problem, but it doesn't change the fact that it's difficult for cars of similar pace to overtake one another, regardless of aero/fuel loads/whatever.

So Karting, a spec formula, doesn't see overtaking?

I would rather see drivers run nose to tail a la Mansell behind Senna at Monaco 92 etc than DRS overtakes taking place half way along the pitstraight at Barcelona.

Drivers and set up would still make a difference. That's what you see in sec karting.

[ChrisF1]

That might solve the "dirty air" aspect of the problem, but it doesn't change the fact that it's difficult for cars of similar pace to overtake one another, regardless of aero/fuel loads/whatever.

So Karting, a spec formula, doesn't see overtaking?

I would rather see drivers run nose to tail a la Mansell behind Senna at Monaco 92 etc than DRS overtakes taking place half way along the pitstraight at Barcelona.

Drivers and set up would still make a difference. That's what you see in sec karting.

So we don't have drivers and set ups in formula 1?

I find it absurd to suggest that cars of a similar pace won't overtake. Yes, it's difficult, but respect goes to any driver who can hold off a faster car.

What about Gilles Villeneuve, Spain in 1981, a race he held off others for 60 laps - it's considered one of his best drives - we don't say "Oh, the cars couldn't overtake", it's "Wow, what a fantastic job Gilles did"

Drivers don't fight so hard for position because of DRS, because of tyres.

If we had less aero dependant cars as discussed previously, and they were similarly matched, we may see a return of the best drivers - those who can take an hour of being hassled by an opponent crawling over their wing, and those who can stick a car up the inside and brave it out.

Do we remember DRS overtakes or do we remember Schumacher, Hakkinen, Zonta?

[turbof1]

So we don't have drivers and set ups in formula 1?

So we are necessarily assuming I disagree with you?

[ChrisF1]

So we don't have drivers and set ups in formula 1?

So we are necessarily assuming I disagree with you?

I was yes, misread the tone of the post - I thought it was quite dismissive. Apologies if that isn't the case.

[bhall II]

So Karting, a spec formula, doesn't see overtaking?

I find it absurd to suggest that cars of a similar pace won't overtake.

The difference between Formula One and spec-series/karting is that performance differentials in F1 tend to reflect firm hardware advantages that don't get tired or make mistakes. And as solutions/strategies naturally converge upon the optimum over time, the gaps become smaller as variation decreases. However, the gaps also become more difficult to overcome, because the decrease in variation also means the cars wind up with the same basic strengths and weaknesses. This has been borne out over the sport's history.

From the year in which overtaking was at its "natural" zenith, 1984 French Grand Prix qualifying times:



From the doldrums of overtaking, qualifying times from the 2008 French Gran Prix:



The entire field for the 2008 race qualified within the same gap as the top-9 in 1984. But, because they had the same engines, which means they had more or less the same fuel consumption, which means they carried more or less the same fuel loads, which means they had more or less the same fuel strategies, the result is a situation that made overtaking very difficult.

Overtaking is performance differentiation in action.

(Note: I chose the French Grand Prix simply because I already had a screenshot of the 2008 times. As I'm only seeking to identify trends emblematic of the problem, I'm OK with the fact that they took place on different circuits and that I don't have any exact overtaking numbers. I'm quite quite certain that any similar, or more accurate, comparison will yield a similar result.)

That's why something like this...

I´d rather just see them stick a spec-fan on the cars instead. Get rid of the wings and shift focus to low drag bodies instead.
All the talk of following another car-problems would stop immediately.

...would ultimately have little overall effect, because any change applied uniformly to all cars will naturally do nothing to either increase or decrease the performance differentials between them. It would just make the problem look different. (DRS works, because it only applies to the trailing car.)

Soapbox: I think the reason why overtaking is a problem is because there's simply no will to acknowledge that Formula One isn't necessarily compatible with copious overtaking. But, the arrogant personalities involved like to think they can do anything. So, we end up with a frustrating string of wildly expensive, artificial and/or ineffectual changes, as these Masters of the Universe try to prove, once and for all, that they alone can have their cake and eat it, too.

I suggested circuit alteration, because I think it's probably the most effective change that can be made to attack the "structural" problem of overtaking, and because it's a change that would not be subjected to F1 teams' natural, obsessive/expensive tendency to optimize everything.

[SectorOne]

...would ultimately have little overall effect, because any change applied uniformly to all cars will naturally do nothing to either increase or decrease the performance differentials between them. It would just make the problem look different. (DRS works, because it only applies to the trailing car.)

I disagree. There´s several hundred spec series with overtakes beyond anything F1 has ever seen and it´s because of the performance differential between cars is extremely small coupled with the fact that dirty air is less of a problem.
Cherry-picking wikipedia results doesn´t really hold here if you ask me.
DRS works, because it´s designed to give you back what you lost in the previous corner coming out of the straight, that is it´s one and only function.

With cars that are not as affected by dirty air and have extremely similar performances between each other all you need is slipstreaming and you have overtakes.

Again, several hundred spec series around the world as proof.
They also run on several hundred different racing circuits with great success.

[bhall II]

Again, several hundred spec series around the world as proof.
They also run on several hundred different racing circuits with great success.

Again...

The difference between Formula One and spec-series/karting is that performance differentials in F1 tend to reflect firm hardware advantages that don't get tired or make mistakes.

Put inherently faster cars, ones that are in no way wholly dependent upon driver talent to win, ahead of slower cars, which is a process that tends to unfold at each qualifying session, and you're simply not going to get a lot of overtaking throughout a race.

That's the inescapable difference between a developmental series and a spec series. It is what it is, and it cannot be avoided.

[tuj]

back to on-topic: refueling won't happen. The teams don't want it. Its too dangerous if you want to keep the pit stop times the same, you will need a pressurized rig.