Did Grosjean "Brake Test" Verstappen?

[Manoah2u]

So that's another Max vs Lotus incident, where he damaged his own front wing, and damaged Pastor's Lotus,
causing the marshalls to go on track to grab the debris, resulting in double yellow, and compromising Pastor's race.

That was 100% Max's fault, and it's worth mentioning he got away with that with quite some luck, because in all its facts it could be concidered as 'causing a collision' - Max very well could have gotten a penalty for that. He didn't, so imho, he was lucky there.

Just have a look at the footage.. Maldonado is just very slow (deliberately?) out of the corner.. and it's certainly not worth a penalty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBbm2IicuPM

Maldonado is slow because he had a lockup, clearly seen through the smoke coming off the car and seems to get a bit slow on the get-away. Nothing deliberate from Pastor there. Just the results of Pastor's lotus having some braking difficulties which got thanked by a bump of the Toro Rosso.

Max did not get a penalty because indeed this single occasion wasn't worth a penalty.
It however does show and preludes that Verstappen - a rookie after all - hasn't yet fully mastered judgement of the braking points of other drivers in varying circumstances, paired with over-enthusiasm being in Monaco.

Fact remains, verstappen did not brake sufficiently or acted accordingly to the driver in front of him, and therefore hit Maldonado. The exact same thing that happened to Grosjean - again a slightly braking-hampered lotus driver.

Max should've learned a lesson from the Maldonado-contact and make sure he doesn't repeat that error.
Instead, despite the contact being a warning, and being warned Romain's lotus seems to have the same brake issues as the sister car he hit a dozen laps before, didn't reason him into adapting to not crash into the lotus like he did before.

The logical thing would be to spend some laps behind 'reading' and learning how the lotus behaves on track and to see where and when you could find a potential gap.

In this case, he did not do that, and simply 'went for it' - while the truth be told, he could have known better.
That's why he got the penalty.

Max, has now learned a valuable lesson he will not forget, including that judgement errors will have consequences also with the FIA. This will even make him stronger, more experienced and more complete as a driver.

If he would have done this 3 seasons into his F1 career, then a burn would be in place, like what happened to Crashjean @ Spa.

Other drivers would have learned this by having a couple of more years in sub-formula in their career. Max has not got the 'privilidge' of that benefit, so it happened in a F1 race. I'm doubtfull it'll ever happen again. Even schumacher the great himself plowed hard into the back of Senna's car @ Singapore if i recall correctly. Webber into a Caterham. Rosberg into a HRT, etc etc. It happens, and they learn from it.

Sainz' missing Ericsson get's labeled as 'a masterful save' but the truth is he got a million of luck there. He actually made a error [the same as which saw Perez slamming hard into the barriers a couple of years ago], and trying to keep the car from the barriers got him having way too much speed into the corner which almost had him split the Sauber in half. He was carrying so much speed he would have launched over the back of that sauber straight into the barriers and a sauber cut in half. It's pure luck nothing happened there and imho was a far worse incident then Verstappen's hit. The outcome, lucky for Sainz, was 'just' overshooting the curve. But if that resulted in contact, we would have had a vastly different outcome from the Monaco GP.

[ChrisF1]

Wow, I guess 2014 cars are so much weaker than Sato's 2002 Jordan at the Austrian GP if Sainz was going to split it in half.

Bit overdramatic?

[Andres125sx]

.... and he´ll not compete? That´s what you´re insinuating?

Mark Blundell has stated uncategorically in interviews in certain situations, he went into corners racing against other drivers, knowing full well they both wouldn't come out the other side. His point was to intimidate the other driver and make them second guess next time, and maybe back off. If you are racing another driver and you think he is likely to act that way, it will affect your judgement. As I said, drivers' mind games...

Whatever gives you the edge next time...

That´s very very different. I could agree if you were talking about Ricciardo and Raikonnen incident for example, that´s the sort of maneouver Brundel should be talking about probably.

But Grosjean did nothing, it was Verstappen who simply missed the braking point and didn´t react to Romain´s move to the right

[Andres125sx]

Sainz' missing Ericsson get's labeled as 'a masterful save' but the truth is he got a million of luck there. He actually made a error [the same as which saw Perez slamming hard into the barriers a couple of years ago], and trying to keep the car from the barriers got him having way too much speed into the corner which almost had him split the Sauber in half. He was carrying so much speed he would have launched over the back of that sauber straight into the barriers and a sauber cut in half. It's pure luck nothing happened there and imho was a far worse incident then Verstappen's hit. The outcome, lucky for Sainz, was 'just' overshooting the curve. But if that resulted in contact, we would have had a vastly different outcome from the Monaco GP.

Agree luck was very important here, but you can´t ignore he played his role there. Many drivers have had that lost of control at that point, we´ve seen Perez, Merhi, Hamilton, Sainz... Some saved it (hamilton and Sainz) and some didn´t (Merhi and Perez)

I can´t agree it was a far worse incident then Verstappen´s hit though. We´ve seen many drivers doing that mistake (listed above), some considered one of the best on current grid. That´s a difficult braking point with the steering not completely straight combined with a brow of a hill (not sure if that´s the correct term) wich makes very easy to lose stability. Verstappen mistake on the other hand was a simple misjudgement of an easy braking point. If Maldonado do that same mistake....

[Manoah2u]

Wow, I guess 2014 cars are so much weaker than Sato's 2002 Jordan at the Austrian GP if Sainz was going to split it in half.

Bit overdramatic?

obviously. clearly you get the point. so what's the intention here?

[Manoah2u]

Agree luck was very important here, but you can´t ignore he played his role there. Many drivers have had that lost of control at that point, we´ve seen Perez, Merhi, Hamilton, Sainz... Some saved it (hamilton and Sainz) and some didn´t (Merhi and Perez)

I can´t agree it was a far worse incident then Verstappen´s hit though. We´ve seen many drivers doing that mistake (listed above), some considered one of the best on current grid. That´s a difficult braking point with the steering not completely straight combined with a brow of a hill (not sure if that´s the correct term) wich makes very easy to lose stability. Verstappen mistake on the other hand was a simple misjudgement of an easy braking point. If Maldonado do that same mistake....

agree with you there though on both points, with the sidenote however that yes, Sainz 'saved' his error....but i have to disagree the idea that he managed to 'avoid' vaporising [ using that excessive metaphor for reason above ] ericsson by being 'smart' enough to avoid locking the wheels. He hardly stabilised the car before ericsson popped up in front of him.
that doesn't take away the save, but overglorifying into superhuman skills is another step imho.

Did verstappen have contact with other drivers before Monaco [in F1] btw?
He did some ballsy manouvres which all ended well - even though it saw ericsson got caught by surprise and seemed to stall it. I do remember his father's driving very well, though - it's similar. Jos seemed to limit his 'ballsy' moves normally to just the race start [ where he overtook quite the bunch ].

The sad thing about the entire incident is that it not just cost Max's his race and Grosjean his points, it thoroughly ruined Hamilton's race [ even though that was Mercedes' own mistake ]. Kinda Murphy's law there.

[George-Jung]

Just by reading some opinions here on this forum.. If Senna would have raced today, a lot of people would say he couldn't drive..going for gaps that 'doesn't exist'.. And a lot of those same people are saying that Senna is the greatest.

As I mentiond before in the Torro Rosso topic, perhaps it is Verstappen's fault.. but nevertheless we should embrace these kind of drivers, who are really going for it.

Good night!

[Andres125sx]

Agree luck was very important here, but you can´t ignore he played his role there. Many drivers have had that lost of control at that point, we´ve seen Perez, Merhi, Hamilton, Sainz... Some saved it (hamilton and Sainz) and some didn´t (Merhi and Perez)

I can´t agree it was a far worse incident then Verstappen´s hit though. We´ve seen many drivers doing that mistake (listed above), some considered one of the best on current grid. That´s a difficult braking point with the steering not completely straight combined with a brow of a hill (not sure if that´s the correct term) wich makes very easy to lose stability. Verstappen mistake on the other hand was a simple misjudgement of an easy braking point. If Maldonado do that same mistake....

agree with you there though on both points, with the sidenote however that yes, Sainz 'saved' his error....but i have to disagree the idea that he managed to 'avoid' vaporising [ using that excessive metaphor for reason above ] ericsson by being 'smart' enough to avoid locking the wheels. He hardly stabilised the car before ericsson popped up in front of him.
that doesn't take away the save, but overglorifying into superhuman skills is another step imho.

Did verstappen have contact with other drivers before Monaco [in F1] btw?
He did some ballsy manouvres which all ended well - even though it saw ericsson got caught by surprise and seemed to stall it. I do remember his father's driving very well, though - it's similar. Jos seemed to limit his 'ballsy' moves normally to just the race start [ where he overtook quite the bunch ].

The sad thing about the entire incident is that it not just cost Max's his race and Grosjean his points, it thoroughly ruined Hamilton's race [ even though that was Mercedes' own mistake ]. Kinda Murphy's law there.

Then we agree

He hardly stabilised the car before ericsson popped up in front of him.
that doesn't take away the save, but overglorifying into superhuman skills is another step imho.

I think nobody overglorified it, we just said it was a good save, maybe some of us used shocking smilies, but at least in my case it was not because of an unbeliveble save, but because a huge crash was so close it was scary

[Boff]

I thought he braked early at the time, and seeing it in slow motion it still looks looks like he brakes early. Mcnish said after the race that he braked early...

[Starscreamer]

Yes he did!!
But I see it as a racing incident
Ridiculous from FIA that Verstappen get a penalty and other drivers not

[sAx]

Yes he did!!
But I see it as a racing incident
Ridiculous from FIA that Verstappen get a penalty and other drivers not

Guess the data that suggests he (Grosjean) braked 5m later than the previous lap doesn't count!

[Boff]

But Permane says later, not earlier?!? Where's the telemetry? Why would the stewards lie? Could have been a chance to examine how early braking is allowed, maybe brake lights if too early.
Maybe the stewards want injustice, bad driving & head injuries to be part of the sport.
Max should appeal... if he can get the telemetry.

[mertol]

How the things have turned. Last year it was definitely not Massa's fault for doing the same thing in Canada .

For the record I do think it was the rear driver's fault in both cases.

[ChrisDanger]

I find this intriguing as Mercedes have no idea where Hamilton's car is and pit him causing him to lose 1st place. Yet Lotus can provide data to PROVE that Grosjean braked 5m later than the previous lap...

I was following on the Live Timing app and Hamilton's car was stationary on the side of the circuit the whole race. It said telemetry was affected but timing data was still good. So yes, Mercedes had no idea where he was. They could probably retrieve GPS data after the race though.

[Vasconia]

Just by reading some opinions here on this forum.. If Senna would have raced today, a lot of people would say he couldn't drive..going for gaps that 'doesn't exist'.. And a lot of those same people are saying that Senna is the greatest.

As I mentiond before in the Torro Rosso topic, perhaps it is Verstappen's fault.. but nevertheless we should embrace these kind of drivers, who are really going for it.

Good night!

Well, I have always said that there is a lot of biased opinions about Senna and his moves. While Schumacher and other drives can be labelled as dirty and too agressive, the same moves(or worse ones) done by Senna have haven hailed as masterful. Pure hipocrisy.

It was CLEARLY Verstappen´s fault, Monaco is Monaco and some moves are not posible to do as it happens in newer tracks. I hope you will learn it Max...