What caused Hamilton's tyre to delaminate?

[DaveKillens]

Calculated risk. If you toss something to the side, and it causes an accident or incident, then the driver craps out and has to be held accountable. And if nothing happens.. no harm, no foul. Just look at open wheel racing, and motorcycles. each track is littered by hundreds of visor tear-offs, each one a small, but real risk.
But of course, if you toss something substantial, then driver beware... it may come back to bite you.
Bits of cars and tires and helmets adorn tracks, and they are all part of the calculated risk of racing.
I agree with manchild that Massa's actions were selfish, but this is racing, and it's all about being ultimately selfish.

[checkered]

For starters, Massa had

to do something. Apparently the forces the partially loose plastic part caused were beyond annoying, easily. My guess is that if something like that happens, the driver radioes in the problem. The team, apart from worrying about the physical effect on the driver, would've soon realized that if the part came off by its own accord it would've most likely been sucked into the airbox causing a serious problem.

In a way, by preventing a mechanical problem by ripping the part off, Ferrari were managing the risk propably for everyone's benefit (driver able to concentrate, risk of a tech malfunction of some kind averted). But as always there's room for further thought. Perhaps Massa could've stuck the piece somewhere in his cockpit, waiting for it to be removed during a pitstop, instead of throwing it away? Some slight risks to that, too. But intentional sabotage? Hardly.

The next car behind him (the most likely candidate to suffer) was his team mate, after all.

[freedom_honda]

can i just say that Massa threw that piece of Plastic(or CF..not sure) on the pit straight..
turn 12 was a bit too far from the pit straight dont u reckon??

[Belatti]

Massa's action was deliberate. If his helmet aero bit flew away by itself than it would have been an accident. He could have at least go off ideal line to throw it away there but no - he was a crybaby thinking only about 10 points.

Oh! How bad is to think only in 10 points! Maybe Massa should only think in 8 or 6...
MC, please don´t blame Massa for wanting to win!

And you should watch more Gille Villeneuve´s videos. Driving with 3 wheels is worth seeing!

[bizadfar]

I am serious. Yes - a little piece of CF can puncture tyre or lead to its explosion causing serious crash with injuries and fatalities of drivers, marshals and spectators. No one is saying that it must happen that way but when you know it can happen than you act responsibly to prevent it.

What Massa did reminds of street cop finding a loaded gun on the street saying "My shift is almost over and if I bring this gun to station I'll have to write a report and stay longer at work so I'll just kick it aside and someone from next shift will find it...".

Pure selfishness and lack of any concern for safety.

Massa is a spoiled crybaby and he'll remain like that forever. Good driver - yes, respect worthy sportsman - no (he learned from the best).

Actually his very good team minded person. In every single interview he gives, his very careful in his range of words and never really talks about himself or Kimi but their performances as one. His extremely humble too. I don't know why I bother pointing it out to a retard though.

The difference between murder and manslaughter is probably meaningless too I guess.

[pRo]

retard

PLEASE argue about the matter, but don't get into personal attacks!

[manchild]

Personal attacks are always sign of lack of arguments to back up a viewpoint. Teen hormone boosted "fast and furious" ranting without sense for value of human life - that's what it is. Before saying what is sublimed in "well, motorsport is dangerous" a person should realize what death really is. For me safety comes first. For those who favor thrill, drama and their personal pleasure from it all I can say is that they are immature. They should try reading marshaling guidebooks to realize that safety always comes first and that race outcome, scores, spectators, fans and sponsors are of secondary importance in FIA based championships. I'm watching F1 for over 20 years and I've never seen a driver throwing potentially dangerous object on the circuit. In impartial championship that would mean instant disqualification and long term suspension. It is of no significance if a driver is leading the race or not. Life of other drivers, marshals and spectators are not worth less than his potential victory.

[zac510]

manchild, it's hard to take seriously a rant against a Ferrari driver from you. Your stance on (against) Ferrari is well known so it's hard to believe you are being impartial.

We must be careful with these kind of matters. sooner or later overtaking will be dangerous too... unless done in the pits!

[bizadfar]

Personal attacks are always sign of lack of arguments to back up a viewpoint. Teen hormone boosted "fast and furious" ranting without sense for value of human life - that's what it is. Before saying what is sublimed in "well, motorsport is dangerous" a person should realize what death really is. For me safety comes first. For those who favor thrill, drama and their personal pleasure from it all I can say is that they are immature. They should try reading marshaling guidebooks to realize that safety always comes first and that race outcome, scores, spectators, fans and sponsors are of secondary importance in FIA based championships. I'm watching F1 for over 20 years and I've never seen a driver throwing potentially dangerous object on the circuit. In impartial championship that would mean instant disqualification and long term suspension. It is of no significance if a driver is leading the race or not. Life of other drivers, marshals and spectators are not worth less than his potential victory.

If it said that in a racing conduct handbook; ok. But it's a marshal handbook, they don't drive - they're duty is different. What's the basis for comparison to Massa?

Let's go back to Spa 2004 the crashes just after Rouge. Those CF shards which punctured Button's rear tyre (the most obvious memory of numerous punctures), So I guess that was DIRECTLY and intentional fault of Webber, Sato, Bruni, Pantano crashing into eachother because they conspired to puncture the tyres of Montoya, Button, Coulthard!
Button's tyre blow into Les Combes took out an innocent Minardi. Using your logic we see the brain function of Button:
1) I hate that Minardi driver, let's take him out
2) We are coming to Rouge, let's pick up some CF debris to cause a blow out
They hit as we all know, using your logic and reasoning Button committed an intentional and direct offense and should've been punished for running over CF shards.

You have attacked my arguments as weak, I said what I said because other people for 2+ pages have tried to reason with you, but you refuse to even acknowledge other views. You are so attached to your own view you really don't consider anything at else at all.

Where did he rip it off anyway? On the pit straight, easy to avoid debris there. (right? I'm not sure, but that's what some have said!)

You make an exaggerated ridiculous deal out of most things (which happen to involve MS, Massa, Ferrari - I'm not sure about Kimi yet). I don't see anyone here complaining weather they fans of F1 or fans of a team.

pRo, what's a term to describe something really wide?

(Again above I'm saying it indirect, but MC would probably call it direct )

You didn't answer if you knew the difference between murder and manslaughter (which I seriously though would get your thoughts straightened out within reason after I made that personal attack). And that is the best and simplest analogy I could give, and you didn't even mention it! Excellent!

As for Hamilton's tyre failure I voted driving style but would also weigh in bad luck. Car was simply too stiff (obviously preference of a stiff or soft car is part of style) and too much energy transmitted into the Right front.

[mx_tifoso]

Manchild:

Your judgements against drivers and teams have all been based on pure speculation, nothing more. The subject of this thread is still about Hamiltons tire puncture, yet you have managed to make personal comments about not only Massa, but M.Schumacher as well. All of us members that have been here long enough know your biased point of view against everything Ferrari, so it comes as no surprise to us that when one of their drivers commits a supposably dangerous act, as stated by you anyways, you take up arms and blame them(him) for the puncture on another drivers tire. As I have said before, it is faulty cause and effect. Massa's action has no direct effect on Hamiltons accident.

I take into consideration that you will not come to reason and will continue to only look at the world from your own point of view, nothing anyone says will change that, sad enough as it is. So I render it futile to continue discussing this subject with someone that will not come to reason, due to impartial judgement, or as you have called it, "safety concerns".

Dont get me wrong, I'm pro-safety, but it has its place in everything, and this specific racing accident had nothing to do with someones ill-judgement to consider his fellow driver's personal well being. It's one thing to speculate about an accident, but its very different to doubt someones personal morals and values.

Dont take these comments too personal, as I still have respect towards you, and will continue to do so. You have been of great help to me, but these anti-Ferrari speculations have no logical foundations.

[manchild]

I admit that I was hitting on Ferrari very hard but I also did it on other F1 participants. Who else in this forum criticized second Renault driver in 2005 and 2006 more than me? Who was the most disgusted by R27 livery? Me!

If it is so easy to avoid debris at the pit straight (by going off the ideal line) why didn't Massa go off ideal line to dropped it off there? Things do fall of the cars frequently as the result of failures and accidents but those are unavoidable situations coming from nature of the racing while what Massa did was deliberate, absolutely preventable and controllable.

What if Hamiltons tyre was initially damaged by Massa's helmet element? What if Hamilton looses title beause he lost several points due to tyre failure?

Without wanting to go into further discussion I'd just like to say that I'm basing what my story on general safety rules that are very well known to both drivers and marshals.

[pRo]

Interesting. Some sites say that according to Bridgestone, the tyre had gathered lots of extra rubber from the track, which hardened the surface and made it less resilient to hits. They couldn't name the final cause though, but were guessing he might've run over something.

Some sites claim Bridgestone said that pieces of rubber came off from the tire and the internal tissue came visible, which made it very vulnerable.


Wonder which was is it?

[FLC]

Initial work on the tyre has ruled out a failure caused by debris and Bridgestone believes the problem was the result of excessive 'chunking'.

This is when small bits of rubber, often referred to as marbles, get stuck to the tyre and form larger chunks. These then harden on the surface, and can eventually damage the tyre underneath.

Hamashima said that the initial prognosis is that 'chunking' was the cause, although he made it clear that Bridgestone did not know exactly what forces were in place to then cause the tyre to fail.

"It was delamination caused by excessive 'chunking'," Hamashima told autosport.com. "The 'chunking' got hardened as he braked for Turn Nine. It seems that there was an (unexplained) extra force applied to where the chunk was, and this delaminated the tyre."

Bridgestone want to try and find out if Hamilton hitting a kerb caused the excessive force that tipped his tyre over the edge. Several drivers experienced similar chunking of the tyres in Sunday's race but Hamilton was the only one who suffered a failure.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61860

I guess the second option is off the table...

[Ray]

Irregardless of manchilds' "bias" or not, you don't throw --- on a racetrack. Be it plastic, CF, a towel (DC!!!!), or anything else. You just don't do it. I don't care what effect it was having on the driver, you don't just let things go out of your cockpit. He could have saved that piece in the car somewhere till a pitstop. And all you naysayers that cry foul with that statement, he's a good enough driver to reach up and rip it off then let it go, he's good enough to tuck it between his legs till a pitstop. I don't want to hear any stupid childish rebuttals to that.

And all this juvenile bullshit about the Spa crash, and others delibrately leaving shards of carbon on the track from a wreck to spoil another drivers race, get your head out of your asses and grow up. You all know what manchild means, you all know what Massa did was dangerous, so shut the eff up and quit being stupid.

[modbaraban]

he's good enough to tuck it between his legs till a pitstop. I don't want to hear any stupid childish rebuttals to that.

Sorry, but your post is begging for reply. I do NOT want to imagine what happens if he get's in a crash like Hamilton in EUGPquali or Kubica in CANGPrace whith that peice of plastic tucked between his legs

How childish is that? Safety u say?