Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Vasconia
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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GPR-A wrote: They never really had good aero people in their ranks. Even in Brawn/Todt/Byrne era, they got beaten by McLaren (Newey) and Renault with aero ideas. There is something at Maranello which doesn't allows Aero to flourish. They are always a Mechanical company and seems to remain the same. That is also the fundamental philosophy of Mr. Enzo Ferrari. Unfortunately, even the Mechanical strength is on erosion.
The secret of the Schumi era was, apart from having the best driver, to have a very good balance between engine, mechanic downforce and good (but not outstanding) aero. So I agree with you in this aspect.

The current engine is good but the balance between other elements is not so good. They have a lot of hi profile guys in the team so I dont understand why they dont solve those problems.

f1316
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Ferrari were usually fastest at Barcelona during the peak of their powers, so I'd suggest that, vs similarly power Mercedes and BMW engines at least, their aero was actually very good/the best.

Even if you look at 07/08, mclaren were better at slow speed corners but Ferrari dominated Barcelona and other high speed corner tracks. If you think about Lewis's wins at silverstone 07 or spa 08, it was mclaren's massive advantage in wet conditions that made this possible (after Ferrari had been faster in the dry).

So I don't agree with that assertion. Post 2010 (which was a very good all round car, not far from the red bull) however, yes, they've never had great aero compared to rivals.

wickedz50
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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f1316 wrote:Ferrari were usually fastest at Barcelona during the peak of their powers, so I'd suggest that, vs similarly power Mercedes and BMW engines at least, their aero was actually very good/the best.

Even if you look at 07/08, mclaren were better at slow speed corners but Ferrari dominated Barcelona and other high speed corner tracks. If you think about Lewis's wins at silverstone 07 or spa 08, it was mclaren's massive advantage in wet conditions that made this possible (after Ferrari had been faster in the dry).

So I don't agree with that assertion. Post 2010 (which was a very good all round car, not far from the red bull) however, yes, they've never had great aero compared to rivals.
So it means that every top team progressed on aero development post 2010 and Ferrari were just static. Can you point out which team presently has the best aero package?

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Juzh
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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It's obviously mercedes, right?

f1316
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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wickedz50 wrote:
f1316 wrote:Ferrari were usually fastest at Barcelona during the peak of their powers, so I'd suggest that, vs similarly power Mercedes and BMW engines at least, their aero was actually very good/the best.

Even if you look at 07/08, mclaren were better at slow speed corners but Ferrari dominated Barcelona and other high speed corner tracks. If you think about Lewis's wins at silverstone 07 or spa 08, it was mclaren's massive advantage in wet conditions that made this possible (after Ferrari had been faster in the dry).

So I don't agree with that assertion. Post 2010 (which was a very good all round car, not far from the red bull) however, yes, they've never had great aero compared to rivals.
So it means that every top team progressed on aero development post 2010 and Ferrari were just static. Can you point out which team presently has the best aero package?
Well, it's also accurate to say that the man who designed the 2010 Ferrari also designed the 2015 Mercedes (Aldo Costa).

I don't currently have the time/inclination to write a long post about how Ferrari threw the baby out with the bath water in 2011 but in my opinion getting rid of Costa was a major blunder (with the benefit of hindsight - I was, like any typical, reactionary fan, baying for blood at the time!)

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Thunder
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Life is easy when you are Nikki Lauda. He says instead of building a fast Car Ferrari is just thowing around Spaghetti. See, that's why they are no World Champions. ^^

http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 70705.html
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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f1316 wrote: Well, it's also accurate to say that the man who designed the 2010 Ferrari also designed the 2015 Mercedes (Aldo Costa).

I don't currently have the time/inclination to write a long post about how Ferrari threw the baby out with the bath water in 2011 but in my opinion getting rid of Costa was a major blunder (with the benefit of hindsight - I was, like any typical, reactionary fan, baying for blood at the time!)
For your kind information, the designing of cars is done by Geoff Willis at Mercedes and Aldo takes over for the in season development. Geoff Willis is someone who comes from the Aerodynamics background and has worked extensively with Adrian Newey. Earlier it was Loic Begois, who was then fired. Aldo Costa is a SUSPENSION SPECIALIST (Mechanical) by his primary skill set before he ascended to Technical Director position. A lot of credit for FRIC suspension goes to him for perfecting it, which was earlier brought to Mercedes by Bob Bell from Renault. I am sure it is also his contributions that Mercs have cured the tire eating problem. But Aero is Geoff.

bhall II
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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GPR-A wrote:They never really had good...
Damn, where did you pick up such a pathological disdain for Ferrari? :lol:

Settle in; this might take a while. (As if anything else I post doesn't.)

In no particular order...

Below is race chart of Williams and Ferrari from the British Grand Prix that depicts the relative gap between cars:

Image

In the rain, which has a tendency to equalize power, Williams' advantage disappeared. Even Raikkonen, who was off in his own world by that stage, had better pace. That's indicative of a chassis disparity. (Downforce doesn't know when it's raining; a throttle does.)

And don't forget the importance of track position...

Image

Even though it was demonstrably quicker (green), the almighty W06 was held up by the inferior FW37 throughout the fist third of the race (red).

Moving on, are you sure you want to disparage the team's aerodynamic CV, given its position as innovators of two of the most ubiquitous aerodynamic features of current cars?

Image
"Coke-bottle" contours and undercut sidepods: born in Maranello

You like bendy wings? I like bendy wings.

Image
The first modern bendy wing

Everyone loves to lavish praise upon Adrian Newey for his "innovative" interpretations of the rules...

Image
Evidence of a bendy t-tray and the impetus for the move to titanium skids

Guess where he got a lot of his ideas?
Racecar Engineering, Ferrari F2007 Secrets wrote:"The front floor is attached to the chassis via a mechanical hinge system at its most rearward point. The most forward support is a body with one compression spring and one tension spring inside which can be adjusted according to the amount of mass that is fitted to the front floor. There is also a skirt that seals the floor to the chassis, which is made out of rubber and Kevlar to help flexibility and reduce friction in the system."

"If the system had been allowed it could have meant a huge cost of development for other teams in such areas as chassis and under trays etc to make way for the provision for storing the system and the variable quantity of mass. The possible long-term consequences of such a system would be quite substantial because the system is in a crude state of development."

The system detailed by Stepney allowed the F2007 to ride kerbs harder due to the 14-15mm deflection at the leading edge of the floor, which means the Ferraris could straight line chicanes more than other chassis. Front plank wear would also be reduced, allowing the car to run lower at the front, giving an aerodynamic gain.

Stepney also explains the dynamic behaviour of the car, and the advantages the flexing floor gives: "From around 160-180km/h (100-112mph) the car is about 7-8mm lower at the leading edge of the floor, which multiplies up to nearly 19-20mm lower front wing height. The benefits in terms of ground effects and efficiency would be gained all around, with components like turning vanes and front wings at a reduced height relative to the ground."
The F2007 pissed all over "the spirit of the rules," but it passed all the tests, and it was in-line to potentially surpass the F2004 as Ferrari's greatest achievement in the sport. At a time when the entire grid was routinely separated by less than two seconds, the F2007 was a full second ahead of everyone else. (To put that in context, the W06 would need to be three to four seconds quicker than the field to match such dominance.)

Instead, Ferrari's advantage was thwarted after Nigel Stepney and Mike Coughlin (and Fernando Alonso) triggered "Spygate." To add insult to injury, the public disclosure of the car's strengths provided every team with the blueprint for what a modern F1 racer should be, e.g. the importance of rake and variable downforce.
Get to the point, asshole!
OK, OK, OK.

Success in F1 is cyclical, because it's impossible to be the best at everything all the time. There will always be at least one team that does something better than the rest, and that will usually translate to wins at some point.

For instance, when Ferrari was dominant in the early aughts, the team did very little to enhance its simulation capabilities. So, when real-world testing was severely curtailed, they fell behind teams with better simulation tools. Along those same lines, Red Bull's dominance required few concessions for power plant integration, because engines were frozen and the Renault V8 was the easiest to accommodate (best fuel efficiency, least need for cooling). Now that integration is everything, both Red Bull and Renault are completely lost.

That's just how it goes, and it will eventually happen with Mercedes. You can bank on it (but probably not in Greece).

f1316
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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GPR-A wrote:
f1316 wrote: Well, it's also accurate to say that the man who designed the 2010 Ferrari also designed the 2015 Mercedes (Aldo Costa).

I don't currently have the time/inclination to write a long post about how Ferrari threw the baby out with the bath water in 2011 but in my opinion getting rid of Costa was a major blunder (with the benefit of hindsight - I was, like any typical, reactionary fan, baying for blood at the time!)
For your kind information, the designing of cars is done by Geoff Willis at Mercedes and Aldo takes over for the in season development. Geoff Willis is someone who comes from the Aerodynamics background and has worked extensively with Adrian Newey. Earlier it was Loic Begois, who was then fired. Aldo Costa is a SUSPENSION SPECIALIST (Mechanical) by his primary skill set before he ascended to Technical Director position. A lot of credit for FRIC suspension goes to him for perfecting it, which was earlier brought to Mercedes by Bob Bell from Renault. I am sure it is also his contributions that Mercs have cured the tire eating problem. But Aero is Geoff.
Gotcha.

I've read a few things, such as the below, that refer to Costa as "the man behind the current design, which is dominating both the drivers and constructors’ championships." (That one was last year to be fair)

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/08/m ... truggling/

This one says "Designer Aldo Costa denies that the world champion team has played it too safe with the new title-defending Mercedes W06."

http://m.grandprix247.com/?url=http%3A% ... =true#2816

But anyway, I trust you that that's how they split responsibility; just that I often read him referred to as the 'designer' which you presume would incorporate all aspects.

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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bhall II wrote:
GPR-A wrote:They never really had good...
Damn, where did you pick up such a pathological disdain for Ferrari? :lol:

Settle in; this might take a while. (As if anything else I post doesn't.)

In no particular order...

Below is race chart of Williams and Ferrari from the British Grand Prix that depicts the relative gap between cars:

http://i.imgur.com/ADGTUxe.jpg

In the rain, which has a tendency to equalize power, Williams' advantage disappeared. Even Raikkonen, who was off in his own world by that stage, had better pace. That's indicative of a chassis disparity. (Downforce doesn't know when it's raining; a throttle does.)

And don't forget the importance of track position...

http://i.imgur.com/AbHLdlK.jpg

Even though it was demonstrably quicker (green), the almighty W06 was held up by the inferior FW37 throughout the fist third of the race (red).

Moving on, are you sure you want to disparage the team's aerodynamic CV, given its position as innovators of two of the most ubiquitous aerodynamic features of current cars?

http://i.imgur.com/lG6ItSI.jpg
"Coke-bottle" contours and undercut sidepods: born in Maranello

You like bendy wings? I like bendy wings.

http://i.imgur.com/81av26g.jpg
The first modern bendy wing

Everyone loves to lavish praise upon Adrian Newey for his "innovative" interpretations of the rules...

http://i.imgur.com/Wcj2EJ2.jpg
Evidence of a bendy t-tray and the impetus for the move to titanium skids

Guess where he got a lot of his ideas?
Racecar Engineering, Ferrari F2007 Secrets wrote:"The front floor is attached to the chassis via a mechanical hinge system at its most rearward point. The most forward support is a body with one compression spring and one tension spring inside which can be adjusted according to the amount of mass that is fitted to the front floor. There is also a skirt that seals the floor to the chassis, which is made out of rubber and Kevlar to help flexibility and reduce friction in the system."

"If the system had been allowed it could have meant a huge cost of development for other teams in such areas as chassis and under trays etc to make way for the provision for storing the system and the variable quantity of mass. The possible long-term consequences of such a system would be quite substantial because the system is in a crude state of development."

The system detailed by Stepney allowed the F2007 to ride kerbs harder due to the 14-15mm deflection at the leading edge of the floor, which means the Ferraris could straight line chicanes more than other chassis. Front plank wear would also be reduced, allowing the car to run lower at the front, giving an aerodynamic gain.

Stepney also explains the dynamic behaviour of the car, and the advantages the flexing floor gives: "From around 160-180km/h (100-112mph) the car is about 7-8mm lower at the leading edge of the floor, which multiplies up to nearly 19-20mm lower front wing height. The benefits in terms of ground effects and efficiency would be gained all around, with components like turning vanes and front wings at a reduced height relative to the ground."
The F2007 pissed all over "the spirit of the rules," but it passed all the tests, and it was in-line to potentially surpass the F2004 as Ferrari's greatest achievement in the sport. At a time when the entire grid was routinely separated by less than two seconds, the F2007 was a full second ahead of everyone else. (To put that in context, the W06 would need to be three to four seconds quicker than the field to match such dominance.)

Instead, Ferrari's advantage was thwarted after Nigel Stepney and Mike Coughlin (and Fernando Alonso) triggered "Spygate." To add insult to injury, the public disclosure of the car's strengths provided every team with the blueprint for what a modern F1 racer should be, e.g. the importance of rake and variable downforce.
Get to the point, asshole!
OK, OK, OK.

Success in F1 is cyclical, because it's impossible to be the best at everything all the time. There will always be at least one team that does something better than the rest, and that will usually translate to wins at some point.

For instance, when Ferrari was dominant in the early aughts, the team did very little to enhance its simulation capabilities. So, when real-world testing was severely curtailed, they fell behind teams with better simulation tools. Along those same lines, Red Bull's dominance required few concessions for power plant integration, because engines were frozen and the Renault V8 was the easiest to accommodate (best fuel efficiency, least need for cooling). Now that integration is everything, both Red Bull and Renault are completely lost.

That's just how it goes, and it will eventually happen with Mercedes. You can bank on it (but probably not in Greece).
I guess, when love affairs go sour, that is when the pathological disdain creeps in. :lol: Having started watching F1 from 1998 and having been a Ferrari Fan till 2010, I gave up in 2011. :evil: No point in supporting lazy losers.

OK. Here is the undercut side pods. McLaren MP4/8. Year 1993.
Image

Bendy wings??? MP4/17D - 2003
Image

F2007 was 1 second ahead of everyone??? I ran through almost every statistic of 2007 and only to found that F2007 had 3 to 4 tenth over the next best car, that is McLaren MP4/22 in qualifying. That lasted for only first four races and then it was all about MP4/22. To put things into perspective, BMW was in almost always in the mix in qualifying. Not for pole, but in second and third rows.

Ultimately, IT IS INDEED about winning. Whether you win with Kate Winslet or with CAESAR (from Planet of the Apes), it hardly matters. A team with enormous budget, facilities and ability to hire the best talent in the business, keeps continuously churning out dogs, doesn't make up for loyal support. You are as good as your last win and it's almost about a decade a Ferrari has won a championship. And in the last many years, the Ferrari team has been reduced to be a copy cat without any original ideas and hence a bunch of losers.

mika vs michael
mika vs michael
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Ferrari seems to have an inability to switch on the tyres, mostly the harder compounds. Is this because of lack of downforce compared to Merc? It seems that Merc have more downforce available at any speed and then in qualifying they switch on the engine and the difference becomes more evident, 7-8 tenths to the second best.

I don't know what is the answer to specific questions related to the Ferrari performance but there is one general answer that has a name, Ross Brawn.
"It is necessary to relax your muscles when you can. Relaxing your brain is fatal." Stirling Moss

I tried this and I had understeer, I tried that and I had oversteer, at the end of the corner I just run out of talent

bhall II
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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GPR-A wrote:I guess...
- I don't know that I'd characterize the MP4/8's sidepods as being undercut. But, if that's how you see it, fair enough.

What I specifically had in mind is this:

Image

Those undercuts increase the efficiency of the bargeboards, which greatly enhances underbody downforce. It didn't take very long for that idea to spread, either.

Image
R23 & R24

Image
MP4/17 & MP4/19B

- When I identified the 248F1's rear wing as the "first modern bendy wing," I wasn't referring to its geometry. The flap was flexible ("bendy") and collapsed the slot-gap under aerodynamic loading. That stalled the wing in order to reduce drag.

After many protests, the FIA eventually required teams to run slot-gap separators.

Image

- You'll have to look at lap charts to find the F2007's true advantage. It was 0.5s clear of everyone in qualifying, and, in typical Ferrari fashion, it picked up another 0.5s in the race.

You're absolutely right that its advantage was short-lived, though. It's kinda hard to reign supreme if your chief rival has possession of your car's schematics, yanno? (And I don't care that the FIA cleared the design, there's no way in hell that McLaren's 2008 challenger didn't benefit from stolen expertise. It defies belief.)

- Since you brought up BMW...

That company's most recent history in F1 represents another great example of how an unintentionally myopic view of performance can have disastrous consequences.

Image

After three years of steady progress up the grid, BMW's F1.09 was a complete failure, because its designers apparently couldn't cope with the loss of a myriad aerodynamic appendages. The result is that BMW left the sport.

- I recognize that it's easy to dismiss Ferrari's output of late. The team clearly hasn't performed up to expectations, and Fernando Alonso made it obvious to anyone who would listen that Fernando Alonso considered Fernando Alonso to be Ferrari's lone asset. However, as is the case with most ideas that take hold amongst the sport's punditry, that view is far too simplistic.

Everything Alonso achieved (and didn't achieve) at Ferrari is because of his cars. It's the same for Vettel's results at Red Bull and Hamilton's results at Mercedes. It's always the car, because drivers can't physically move themselves around a track.

That said, Alonso is not without fault. For instance, he fell short of the 2012 Championship by three points. Had he merely finished the Japanese Grand Prix in the same position in which he qualified - 7th, Massa finished 2nd from 11th - he'd be a three-time World Champion.

Instead...

Image

zeph
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Vasconia wrote:The secret of the Schumi era was, apart from having the best driver, to have a very good balance between engine, mechanic downforce and good (but not outstanding) aero.
I believe I read that the key to the success of the Schu/Todt/Brawn/Byrne era was unlimited testing. Schu literally spent all his spare time at Fiorano. The in-season test ban really hurt Ferrari.

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dans79
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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zeph wrote:
Vasconia wrote:The secret of the Schumi era was, apart from having the best driver, to have a very good balance between engine, mechanic downforce and good (but not outstanding) aero.
I believe I read that the key to the success of the Schu/Todt/Brawn/Byrne era was unlimited testing. Schu literally spent all his spare time at Fiorano. The in-season test ban really hurt Ferrari.
I've heard, read, & believe the same thing.
201 105 104 9 9 7

windwaves
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

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Vasconia wrote:
GPR-A wrote: They never really had good aero people in their ranks. Even in Brawn/Todt/Byrne era, they got beaten by McLaren (Newey) and Renault with aero ideas. There is something at Maranello which doesn't allows Aero to flourish. They are always a Mechanical company and seems to remain the same. That is also the fundamental philosophy of Mr. Enzo Ferrari. Unfortunately, even the Mechanical strength is on erosion.
The secret of the Schumi era was, apart from having the best driver, to have a very good balance between engine, mechanic downforce and good (but not outstanding) aero. So I agree with you in this aspect.

The current engine is good but the balance between other elements is not so good. They have a lot of hi profile guys in the team so I dont understand why they dont solve those problems.
There were are so many secrets....and I think the one you point out is clearly one, but first and foremost it was about the people, from driver to mechanics and how they all interacted and worked together.....that was the key, not just top top people, but top people working incredibly well together. This is what Ferrari needs to rebuild.