Mclaren Honda 2015

[PlatinumZealot]

Alonso in the McLaren Simulator:
https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/status/ ... 2281014272

Thanks for posting this. This is a rare view of the Mclaren simulator.

[Jef Patat]

I have some experience with Japanese companies and troubled project, working from Europe it was difficult.

Don't let those feelings mislead you. I've worked (and still do to some extend) extensively with FPT (Fiat Powertrain Technologies), Fiat owns Ferrari and if I were to generalize and say that their way of working is the same as Ferrari in F1 ... Well, let's say I would be amazed if they knew how to screw on one wheel after 1 hour.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's a generalization and that's always doubtfully. Even within one company some departments can be lead in completely different ways with higher management fully aware of that, and from the outside that's very hard to judge.

[GoranF1]

Fernanda Alonso vs World in GB.

[Wazari]

I have been viewing this forum for a while and find it an interesting forum with some meaningful and interesting posts. I have a love-hate relationship with F1; love the racing but hate the politics and governing of F1. This is my experience of the relationship between McLaren and Honda. I have spent 40 years in the automotive racing arena with Toyo-Kogyo (Mazda), Honda Racing from 1983 to 1993 and then on to Toyota Racing. I was born and raised in Japan and have spent over 75% of my time working in Japan with the rest in the US and Europe. The relationship back then with Williams and McLaren were difficult at best and I imagine not much has changed today. How can you suddenly change cultural habits and methods. You don't. My nephew currently works for Honda Racing and although he is tight-lipped about his work, I can sense nothing has changed with regards to the working between Honda and McLaren.

The Japanese and British corporate culture is very different. I was a senior engineer and later a cost analysis engineer for Honda. I found McLaren to be more demanding and quick to lay blame more so than Williams. They wanted things now and they of all people should know that R and D doesn't happen that way. The Japanese are very proud and sometimes that is good and bad. Good in that they are determined to win "their way" and eventually they will succeed. Bad in that "their way" may not be the most efficient way to success. This energy recovery plus turbo electric boost technology is beyond my knowledge base. It seems very complex and Mercedes seems to have found the right blend in terms of power and reliability. I am confident Honda will get there. I know there are four basic tuning trims right now and they have been running at level 2 for the last two races. They are down about 90 HP in that trim in my opinion. I am told that level 4 trim should be equal or slightly higher than Mercedes' estimated output. Of course this is all hearsay and speculation.

I apologize for digressing but bottom line is that in my opinion only, both Honda and McLaren are both to blame for their frustration and lack of good communication. I think Arai-san will still be at head of the helm throughout the 2016 season and McLaren Honda will make big strides in terms of performance after the summer break. Gambare Alonso and Button-san!

[MOWOG]

A most interesting, informed and valuable post, Wazari. Thanks for sharing!

[turbof1]

The Japanese and British corporate culture is very different. I was a senior engineer and later a cost analysis engineer for Honda. I found McLaren to be more demanding and quick to lay blame more so than Williams. They wanted things now and they of all people should know that R and D doesn't happen that way. The Japanese are very proud and sometimes that is good and bad. Good in that they are determined to win "their way" and eventually they will succeed. Bad in that "their way" may not be the most efficient way to success. This energy recovery plus turbo electric boost technology is beyond my knowledge base. It seems very complex and Mercedes seems to have found the right blend in terms of power and reliability. I am confident Honda will get there. I know there are four basic tuning trims right now and they have been running at level 2 for the last two races. They are down about 90 HP in that trim in my opinion. I am told that level 4 trim should be equal or slightly higher than Mercedes' estimated output. Of course this is all hearsay and speculation.

I think you ticked all the correct statements in that one paragraph:
McLaren always was a bit of a pushy company, especially with Ron Dennis at the head. To make matters worse, the current rule set allows little scope to make massive strides in a short timespan. For instance a new PU allocation of a component has to be injected when changes, performance or reliability, are made to part of that corresponding component. And to add, changes have to be accepted by the FIA and not vetoed down by the other manufacturers, who do get to see data and information on the changes. In practice little gets revealed by this, but it's always very uncomfortable to have to share structural PU details with the competition.

On the other hand, the Japanese business culture never really was optimally fitting for formula 1. In the past this was overcome by great engine design, but nowadays the rules are too strict and there's too little scope to have a massive advantage over your competition. It's perhaps a prejudgement or a cliche, but Japanese culture is not fast enough to keep up with the hectic pace of F1, on the short term. On the long term, the investments in R&D will pay off.

Honda also had a lot less time to prepare itself for these PUs. The original ruleset were drafted as far back as 2010. Those did include a different ICE and turbocharger setup then what was set in stone in 2011, but the energy recovery systems remained the same. So, Mercedes started as back as 2010 with developing the PU in earnest. I do not know exactly when Honda started with it, but I do not believe they would have poured major resources into the project before being sure they actually had a customer using the PU. They would probably have run a simulation program before signing up with mclaren to get an estimate on the performance values, but I think I'm correct to assume they only began in earnest with the development in 2013. It means Honda only had 2 years of development against Mercedes having 4 years. Mercedes simply used more time while I think Honda rushed too soon into this and should have waited one more year. True, Renault got it badly wrong despite having the same time space as Mercedes, and Ferrari also made mistakes although had the base to make clear cut changes. But Honda never was going to match either of those in the first year too.

[Wazari]

Yes turbo1 I believe you hit the nail on the head! The rules set with regards to testing today makes it very difficult for quick progress. I can't imagine working for an F1 engine provider today. It is my understanding that Honda began serious design work of the PU in the 3rd quarter of 2013 with only about double the amount of resources (manpower and money) as their Indycar program. So they were really behind. Given that ICE specs are so rigid, (such as bore and stroke), combustion head design is critical. I am guessing (knowing Honda) that the engineers were told to tweak existing head designs for the F! rather than start from scratch. I agree that Honda is about 2 years behind in development work.

I don't know if I would say Honda is not optimally fitting for F1. We did rather well in the 80's and adapted quite well from going to the 1.5 L buzz bombs with turbos to the normally aspirated 3.5 L engine. Honda's culture is one slow start and fast changes. "Jyoki-kikansha" was a nickname for HRD, which means steam locomotive. The culture at least in my day was night and day between Honda and Toyota. Things for me at Toyota Racing was extremely painful with the bureaucracy and politics within the organization.

Honda's involvement back in F! has sparked my interest and I always have liked Button-san as a person and driver. It really is a shame that Alonso and Button don't have better cars. They both have paid their dues and need more pace and downforce in their machines.

[mclaren111]

I do not see any TAG HEUER signs on the car anymore - only on driver's suits

Any idea when this stopped and why ?

[F1NAC]

I do not see any TAG HEUER signs on the car anymore - only on driver's suits

Any idea when this stopped and why ?

TAG also wasn't on the last years cars

[iotar__]

McLaren claimed they wouldn't be acting like Red Bull and they immediately started, that's pretty funny. Firstly Ron Dennis and his very broad "McLaren has one of the best chassis". I think I've heard that before. How good, fourth, fifth best? One of the best is vague enough to send a message but he forgot to mention that Honda's money helped a lot to build this chassis.

Then Boullier and his public talking about putting pressure and separating himself in one sentence and claiming we're together in the next one.

[turbof1]

I don't know if I would say Honda is not optimally fitting for F1.

The one thing I always loved about the Japanese business ethics, is the serenity and emphasis on personal relationships. I've always uphold the notion that in order to do profitable and sustainable cooperation, you need to trust eachother and take your time to built on that trust.

Unfortunaly F1 is a business where nobody really trusts eachother. I don't know if that was the case a few decades ago. I guess the higher risk at death meant you had to trust eachother. But nowadays it's a bit of every man for itself. Everybody has their minds on the short term.

It's a bit unfortunate. I think that for instance the WEC has a much more serene business model that fits that japanese culture quite a bit better. I saw Porsche (not inmediately an example of Japanese culture, I knw) bosses crying and showing emotions when their car finished first at Le Mans. These were/are true racers by heart living for the sport, something I often miss in the current, quite cold environment of F1... . I think that goes along well with how Japanese do business: simply put their heart and soul into the project!

I don't know if I would say Honda is not optimally fitting for F1. We did rather well in the 80's and adapted quite well from going to the 1.5 L buzz bombs with turbos to the normally aspirated 3.5 L engine. Honda's culture is one slow start and fast changes. "Jyoki-kikansha" was a nickname for HRD, which means steam locomotive. The culture at least in my day was night and day between Honda and Toyota. Things for me at Toyota Racing was extremely painful with the bureaucracy and politics within the organization.

I heard stories of where the Toyota F1 team first had to negotiate with the parent company's top management before being allowed to implement updates. I feel your pain, it never could have been easy to deal with such rigid piramide structures.

A bit on the side note, but I'd like to express on behalf of F1technical our sincere gratitude sharing your own experiences and insight for working both for Honda and Toyota! It's always very learnful to have somebody come over who actually worked inside a F1 team or a company affiliated to a team.

[Wazari]

..........
A bit on the side note, but I'd like to express on behalf of F1technical our sincere gratitude sharing your own experiences and insight for working both for Honda and Toyota! It's always very learnful to have somebody come over who actually worked inside a F1 team or a company affiliated to a team.

Thanks for those words. I don't want to bore anyone with personal history that's over 15 years old but when the topic came up about the culture of Japanese companies, I thought I would share some actual insight based on my personal experiences working for Honda during the days of supplying engines to Williams, McLaren and to a lesser extent with Spirit and Tyrell. Lotus did run Honda engines for a couple of years but that was done through a third party Mugen; a company run by Mr. Honda's son and Lotus basically used refurbished previous years versions. Also excuse my English as it is not my primary language.

[Wazari]

I do not see any TAG HEUER signs on the car anymore - only on driver's suits

Any idea when this stopped and why ?

I don't know when it stopped but they must have cut their promotion spending for F1, McLaren in particular. Each team and driver has sponsorship packages, where every square cm on the driver's suit and car is for sale to sponsors with approval from F1. Every logo or slogan on the car or suit must be approved by F1 also. From what I remember, only the space on the driver's helmet was property of the driver and they could chose to put on whatever they wanted. TAG must have decided it wasn't worth spending the extra to have their company displayed on the car. For me it was amazing how much the location on the car dictated the price. The side pods were generally reserved for the primary sponsor with rear wing end plates/supports being the next desired position.

[bhall II]

Though I have zero experience with such matters, I can't imagine kaizen is particularly useful in F1's hyper-fast, crazy-restricted working environment. Nevertheless, it's the dominant managerial strategy for most, if not all, Japanese marques.

Example...

Toyota Way has been driven so deeply into the psyche of employees at all levels that it has morphed from a strategy into an important element of the company's culture. According to Masaki Saruta, author of several books on Toyota, "the real Toyota Way is a culture of control." The Toyota Way rewards intense company loyalty that at the same time invariably reduces the voice of those who challenge authority. "The Toyota Way of constructive criticism to reach a better way of doing things 'is not always received in good spirit at home.'" The Toyota Way management approach at the automaker "worked until it didn't."

In context...

It is rumoured that McLaren's frustration with Honda has grown because the carmaker is even resisting an offer to utilise the resources of the entire and vast McLaren Group.

But Arai responded: "We already work with McLaren Applied Technologies from the start of the project. They have developed software for our power unit, according to our requests. And they did a great job."

When told, however, that the cooperation could be extended even further, he insisted: "We do not need help with technology issues.

"Good advice, of course, is always welcome, but we do not need technology solutions (from elsewhere) for our project."

Example...

5 Whys is an iterative question-asking technique used to explore the cause-and-effect relationships underlying a particular problem...

The technique was originally developed by Sakichi Toyoda and was used within the Toyota Motor Corporation during the evolution of its manufacturing methodologies...

[...]

The vehicle will not start. (the problem)

Why? - The battery is dead. (first why)
Why? - The alternator is not functioning. (second why)
Why? - The alternator belt has broken. (third why)
Why? - The alternator belt was well beyond its useful service life and not replaced. (fourth why)
Why? - The vehicle was not maintained according to the recommended service schedule. (fifth why, a root cause)

[...]

Criticism

While the 5 Whys is a powerful tool for engineers or technically savvy individuals to help get to the true causes of problems, it has been criticized by Teruyuki Minoura, former managing director of global purchasing for Toyota, as being too basic a tool to analyze root causes to the depth that is needed to ensure that they are fixed. Reasons for this criticism include:

- Tendency for investigators to stop at symptoms rather than going on to lower-level root causes.
- Inability to go beyond the investigator's current knowledge - cannot find causes that they do not already know.
- Lack of support to help the investigator ask the right "why" questions.
- Results are not repeatable - different people using 5 Whys come up with different causes for the same problem.
- Tendency to isolate a single root cause, whereas each question could elicit many different root causes.

In context...

Asked if he thinks Honda is taking the right approach on its return to formula one, frustrated team driver Jenson Button answered: "Maybe you should ask them.

"Personally, I believe in them," the Briton, who also raced with Honda power in the carmaker's earlier works team project, told the French magazine Auto Hebdo.

"Whenever we have a problem, we always manage to solve it. The only thing is that the more problems we solve, the more we find," Button added.

Based on my assumption that Honda's power unit is actually PURE's ostensibly aborted power unit, these sorts of problems are likely to continue for quite a while, because the design wasn't born in-house. Not only does that restrict future development to solutions that are compatible with a foundation the company did not build, it means no one at Honda, aside from Gilles Simon and anyone else who followed him from PURE, has experience with the PU from its most nascent stages. They're learning about it as they go along.

I also think the McLaren-Honda development strategy is probably misguided...

"It's a long way to go for us and we have started now quite far behind, but I have so much trust and confidence in this team," Alonso said. "We have a talented team of engineers inside McLaren and we have seen the progress inside McLaren and we saw the progress in the last few weeks. To beat Mercedes you need to do something special and not to copy them or follow them because then you will be behind all the time."

You don't have to do things differently in order to win; you have to do things better. If the ultimate driving force behind a project is constrained in order to build something unique, you run the risk of going down the same blind alleys that others may have discovered and subsequently dismissed as the wrong way to go.

In other words, you might inadvertently "copy" the wrong solution.


Obsolete log-type exhaust manifold

[Andres125sx]

I don't want to bore anyone with personal history that's over 15 years old

Please do!

Keep in mind this is F1T, here we all are F1 freaks willing to learn anything about F1, so imagine if it´s first hand experience


And this is a forum, not a conference, so if someone is not interested about reading something he can always jump that message, but I´d say a vast mayority of F1T memebers will read it carefully, so please, don´t stop yourself about writing anything you can share with us, even if it´s just an old anecdote we will really appreciatte it


Not that I´m F1T spokesperson, but I think I can´t be wrong here