Mclaren Honda 2015

[Andres125sx]

Honda has an engine with 70 hp more (from El Mundo Deportivo)

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... &sandbox=1

This source is terrible. They say: "Hungaroring is a circuit where power is crucial..." No no no no no. Hungary is a slick, twisty, tight track with low power influence on laptime. What random person wrote that stuff?

No they say exactly the contrary, that translation must be quite poor

They say something like "In Hungary the PU is not too relevant, what gives him the chance to achieve best result to date and calm down the critics"

[bhall II]

Diffusers?

Flexible nose/floor?

Blown diffusers were not used on this car yet? Sure?

Have you not been following along?

[Andres125sx]

Yes but I see it very different, that pic you posted show the exhaust at the end of the car, not blowing through the diffuser as RB EBD did

[Jef Patat]

I think in general we are discussing details. I think we all agree that teams copy, smaller teams from bigger teams, vice versa, and from history with only one goal: improve themselves.

This is getting very off topic but anyways. The blown diffuser in bhall II's post is from 1990 or something Lotus. this is Senna in 91:


Off course there was not off throtle blowing back then, the placement were different, but the rules were different as well. The same principle applies.

And weren't blown diffusers first used by... Renault in 1983, so no, it wasn't new, even not in F1.
http://mccabism.blogspot.be/2012/06/fir ... in-f1.html

I do remember (I was two and very into F1T before the internet existed as well )

Edit: just for those interested in history and variations: found this nice overview: http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/diffuser_blown.html

[Andres125sx]

Thank you Jef, very interesting read, upvoted

[bhall II]

A better angle of the Lotus 92...



For what it's worth, I generally don't take a position and then look for ways to defend it. I acknowledge what I see, and then I go from there.

Off course there was not off throtle blowing back then...

You might recognize it by a different name...


Backfire

[iotar__]

I think in general we are discussing details. I think we all agree that teams copy, smaller teams from bigger teams, vice versa, and from history with only one goal: improve themselves.

This is getting very off topic but anyways. The blown diffuser in bhall II's post is from 1990 or something Lotus. this is Senna in 91:
http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/Big/ ... 7A_big.jpg

Off course there was not off throtle blowing back then, the placement were different, but the rules were different as well. The same principle applies.

And weren't blown diffusers first used by... Renault in 1983, so no, it wasn't new, even not in F1.
http://mccabism.blogspot.be/2012/06/fir ... in-f1.html

I do remember (I was two and very into F1T before the internet existed as well )

Edit: just for those interested in history and variations: found this nice overview: http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/diffuser_blown.html

I think in general we are discussing details. I think we all agree that teams copy, smaller teams from bigger teams, vice versa, and from history with only one goal: improve themselves.

This is getting very off topic but anyways. The blown diffuser in bhall II's post is from 1990 or something Lotus. this is Senna in 91:


Off course there was not off throtle blowing back then, the placement were different, but the rules were different as well. The same principle applies.

And weren't blown diffusers first used by... Renault in 1983, so no, it wasn't new, even not in F1.
http://mccabism.blogspot.be/2012/06/fir ... in-f1.html

I do remember (I was two and very into F1T before the internet existed as well )

Edit: just for those interested in history and variations: found this nice overview: http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/diffuser_blown.html

Not only is this off topic it's also trivia knowledge with little application and therefore pointless. I didn't track the this discussion fully backwards but if the context is copying or doing your own way (inc. Newey 2009 and Merc vs Honda/Ferrari) than this simple question should be enough. When the whole grid was putting mid-sason adjustment in 2010 to take advantage of blown diffusers do you think they were copying
80s/90s designs or one particular applications from Red Bull team? Same can be asked about pull-rod suspension and back of the car aero concept copied from Newey after 2009.

Just in case: 2+2=4.

[GoranF1]

He also said in that inteview it may take 10 races to have some decent result....so 70 HP Hungury is most likley press bullshit.

i am damn sure 70hp is bullshit and media created thingy, since start of season we are getting only PR things, be it Arai, boullier or Ron. we all know what will be said after another debacle in Hungary.i have lost faith in honda.

i havent lost faith at all,i don't trust Ron or Arai,but i trust Alonso,Mclaren will recover soon.

[iotar__]

McLaren claimed they wouldn't be acting like Red Bull and they immediately started, that's pretty funny. Firstly Ron Dennis and his very broad "McLaren has one of the best chassis". I think I've heard that before. How good, fourth, fifth best? One of the best is vague enough to send a message but he forgot to mention that Honda's money helped a lot to build this chassis.

Then Boullier and his public talking about putting pressure and separating himself in one sentence and claiming we're together in the next one.

This is simply a joke, since reading, understanding written word and stringing +t2 sentences together is replaced here by mindless and anonymous reddit style pushing the button by people thinking preferences change reality, sources:

Firstly Dennis 07/07/15
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24180/ ... n-for-2016
"They are driving the car and they know that the car is extremely quick in corners. It is not quite the match of the Mercedes at the moment but it is in many of the corners and it is certainly a match for most of the cars on the grid.
Do you need one of many Horner's quotes about Red Bull's chassis? Now there's only thing left - the connection and context. Fact: the are behaving like Red Bull praising "their", chasis and pointing publicly at Honda. On top of that forgetting to mention about financial aspect - Honda's money is also a fact. "Match for most cars on the grid" is exactly the vague and meaningless sentence I was critical of. 50%+1 is most, match = no quicker. That's what it means (just in case).

Then Boullier: http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclar ... ure-aside/ 2015-07-07 (same date just in case)

The title is "McLaren urges Honda to put corporate culture aside" that's 1. pointing publicly finger at Honda 2. implying it's their "culture" that is to blame 3. Telling them publicly how to act. 4. Claiming they reject McLaren's help (very simple implcation is it is Honda's fault not McLaren's):
"We have a lot of expertise which we can share with them, which we try to share with them," he said. "It is up to them to listen and to use it or not.

"Our expertise is just a little bit of boost. We are not making engines. This is Honda, it is their responsibility. But as far as we can help, we will always help because we are one team."

That's exactly what Red Bull did with mid season changes 2014. How is that even questionable?

[Jef Patat]

I didn't track the this discussion fully backwards

Then why do you criticize?

I guess it all started with this:

When you copy someone´s solution, you inevitably are some steps back.

And then the context got very wide.

If you don't like it, don't read it.

Just in case i * i = -1.

[Andres125sx]

A better angle of the Lotus 92...

http://i.imgur.com/xb0NpmD.jpg

For what it's worth, I generally don't take a position and then look for ways to defend it. I acknowledge what I see, and then I go from there.

Maybe if you try to elaborate your posts a bit more like Jef did instead of posting a picture from a poor angle without any comment, explanation or link...

Some of us are not F1 engineers and need proper explanations


btw, I was not trying to say you need to invent something yourself, but doing different things to what your rivals do. It doesn´t matter if it´s a new technology nobody used before, or something wich was used some decades back. If currently nobody use it except you, that´s a distingising factor, and that´s what is needed to neutralice the advantage of any team dominatin, or stablishing a dominating period yourself, specially with frozen rules.

With same weapons the rest use you can´t expect to be much better than they, you need to use something different, as RB did with blown diffusers, flexible nose, etc. Mecedes with split turbo and who knows what else aerodynamically wise, Brawn with double diffusers, Renault with mass dumper, Williams with active suspensions, and so on

Now McHonda try to do it too with a new and agresive PU design. Nobody knows at this point if it will be worth, but I applaud this sort of efforts

[Jef Patat]

Now McHonda try to do it too with a new and agresive PU design.

As a MCL fan I just hope you're right. As of yet we don't really know if it's aggressive engineering or that they are just messing up. I find it a bit pity we don't know a bit more about the layout of the engine by now, it would really aid to the discussion. It's all based on those few pics from a bad angle which originated in lots and lots of speculations.

[Wazari]

You can see some glimpses of the PU in this video. Doesn't look like any of the other PU's to me. If different is aggressive then it's aggressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdhv-hjWw08

[GoranF1]

http://uk.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda- ... ment-drive

Arai;

"We are pushing: please increase and improve the aero and downforce. Now the downforce is so weak, so the driver cannot push the [accelerator] pedal after the corner. We lose the time, and finally the top speed is lower than the top teams, so we need more traction."

He added: "If the aero is getting better and improving race by race, then we have more competitiveness."

[Thunder]

I feel something got lost in Translation here. I mean of course more Downforce always helps but this is the first Time mentioned the Chassis is too weak to put down the Power.