Formula 1 Losing Weight

[Vortex347]

Hi all,
I was watching an awesome doc on formula 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z5kR6MyEJo
It's only a 20 minute story but it's very good. At the end of the video 21:51 they interviewed a guy and he said they could take a huge amount of weight out of the cars. I'm very curious as to what they would change in a f1 car and how much of a weight difference it would make. (e.g. engine- different material- xx weight saving)

I heard that the cars are about 370-390kg without ballast, driver and fuel

This documentary was set in 2005 I believe when the minimum weight was 595kg with driver. So if say they dropped the minimum weight to 500kg with the driver would the teams be able to make this and how (assume car shape still remains the same; most of the changes would be to materials and possibly amount of ballast I'm assuming).
Thanks a lot GUYS, look forward to reading

[DiogoBrand]

Of course it would be possible, but would increase the costs greatly, and probably only 4 or 5 teams would be able to cope with them. Basically it would make for 10 car races and would make the sport as a whole a lot worse than it already is.

[turbof1]

Last year quite a lot of teams weren't able to inmediately hit the minimum allowed weight: 690kg. Throughout the last 10 years, weight has been consistently added through heavier tyres, stronger crash structures, bigger fuel tanks, heavier engines/PUs, etc.

It's a big issue since all those weight increases are structural: it's difficult to trim it back off. The SWG decided for 2017 that the cars are going to be lighter, but I don't have a single clue how they are going to achieve any significant target without compromising in a different area, and in my opinion this will be binned.

In any case dropping back to 500kg, trimming off around 150kg in the most optimistic case, is impossible without completely redesigning the technical rule book. And if we go down that road, know there are SERIOUS disadvantages:
-Trimming off weight on the engines can be achieved by 2 means: Reducing their capacity and thus horsepower, or shave off structural mass. The first one would make F1 slower, the second would make the engines much less reliable. Engines nowadays have to last 5 race weekends a piece. Either way, it would require a completely new engine formula.

-Trimming off weight on chassis and crash structures: This compromises the safety of the driver.

[Vortex347]

True this is a bit imaginative back to the olden days (I think everyone knows the modern formula 1's are a shadow of their former selves). 2005 was the last year of the v10's of which these engines reportedly weighed 95kg and were made from steel and aluminium predominantly as enforced by the FIA. The engine supposedly runs a steel crank and steel gears in the gearbox. I'd assume making them out of titanium would reduce the weight by a fare few kilos (20 or so easy probably)...
Also, I am very doubtful the cars are utilizing carbon fiber to it's fullest effect (80% CB excluding engine). For instance, they still run the heavier magnesium wheels when Koenigsegg are already making wheels out of carbon fiber for their hyper cars... On top of that the cars supposedly run 120kg or so of ballast which might be a necessary evil (might not) but I am doubtful this is all required. After all the glossary on this website defines ballast as: "Weights placed in a car to meet the minimum weight regulations. Cars are always produced as light as possible, enabling mechanics to position ballast in the car to influence the weight distribution of the car and hence have an impact on the car's on-track behaviour." Note the first sentence. This means it obviously isn't all needed so I don't know guessing you could pull ballast down to 80 or 90kg (30-40kg weight loss) and re-position the remaining ballast to create the same desired effect (impact the car's on-track behaviour).If need be, they could adjust the wings and fins to make the car even better as well....
Let me Know what ya think!
Cheers Guys

[ChrisDanger]

...I think everyone knows the modern formula 1's are a shadow of their former selves....

I think although this seems to be a widespread opinion, not everyone thinks this, and it is hardly a fact.

[ian_s]

i thought the lighter cars were due to refueling coming back, which has now been binned, so the lighter cars must also be binned?

[Tommy Cookers]

......The engine supposedly runs a steel crank and steel gears in the gearbox. I'd assume making them out of titanium would reduce the weight by a fare few kilos (20 or so easy probably)...
... On top of that the cars supposedly run 120kg or so of ballast ......
Let me Know what ya think!
Cheers Guys

about the least profitable place to use titanium etc is the crankshaft and gears
(high-strength) steels being much stronger than titanium materials, and much harder
steel makes for smaller diameter crankpins and journals and smaller diameter gears and gearbox shafts
so a lot less friction
(and Ti has poor behaviour in rubbing contact)

and imo 120 kg ballast sounds unrealistic

[PlatinumZealot]

Hi all,
I was watching an awesome doc on formula 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z5kR6MyEJo
It's only a 20 minute story but it's very good. At the end of the video 21:51 they interviewed a guy and he said they could take a huge amount of weight out of the cars. I'm very curious as to what they would change in a f1 car and how much of a weight difference it would make. (e.g. engine- different material- xx weight saving)

I heard that the cars are about 370-390kg without ballast, driver and fuel

This documentary was set in 2005 I believe when the minimum weight was 595kg with driver. So if say they dropped the minimum weight to 500kg with the driver would the teams be able to make this and how (assume car shape still remains the same; most of the changes would be to materials and possibly amount of ballast I'm assuming).
Thanks a lot GUYS, look forward to reading

It would not be safe either. A lot of the weight is for energy absorbing structures too.
Parts are also bigger for reliability. Imagine if engines and gearbox only had to last one race? Imagine how much material you could remove from the design? Astronomical

[Vortex347]

Hi guys thanks for the replies however I am seeking some clarity on some of your answers

and imo 120 kg ballast sounds unrealistic

How much ballast would you suggest they are running then?
I come to this conclusion from the fact that the minimum weight with driver was 595kg (in the 05 season and for 13 years).
Note: this had to be the weight of the car at all times (due to this fact you can effectively rule out any significant weight of fuel as they run these cars with the bare minimum required for them to get around the track)
Take Kimi Raikkonen for example who weighs 62kg
595-62 = 533kg Then on top of that cars are built as light as possible which allows them to place more ballast and better control the cars centre of gravity and a lot of other things.
As I said the cars supposedly weigh 370-390 kg and subtracting that from the weight of Raikkonen's car you get what 140kg of ballast.

It would not be safe either. A lot of the weight is for energy absorbing structures too.

I thought this too at first but using Force = mass * acceleration, a lighter car wouldn't generate as much force when it hits the wall so it wouldn't need to absorb as much energy.

Let me know what ya think!
Cheers for all the replies guys!

[natehall]

Whilst your correct in that you wouldnt need to absorb as much energy if the car lost weight, and so the energy impacting structures could be weaker safely, how on earth do you think the FIA is going to going to justify making the cars weaker to the general public who do not understand the technical details that lighter car means less energy to absorb so they are just as safe..

[Tim.Wright]

The crash zones reduce the impact forces by an amount much larger than what their weight adds to it.

Bear in mind also that the cars all weight more or less the same due to the minimum weight reg.

Anyway, if an improved crash structure weighing 1kg extra reduces a 20g impact to a 19g impact - its already saved approx 700kgf of impact force.

[hollus]

Lighter cars would leave the track at higher speeds.

[Jersey Tom]

Ballast isn't a bad thing. Crucial to getting your weight distribution right. And no, you can't "just design the car to the perfect weight distro"

[andylaurence]

And no, you can't "just design the car to the perfect weight distro"

I'm going to get in first here and say "I bet Newey could"

More to the point, is 370-390kg realistic? There's car-engined single-seaters at that sort of weight, so it seems feasible. I've seen a Van Diemen RF96 with a Duratec engine that's <400kg.

[Vortex347]

Hi guys thanks for all the replies.

More to the point, is 370-390kg realistic?

From what I've found out it is very realistic on those cars (they could probably build them even lighter if they took carbon fibre to the next level). Remember these cars didn't have KERS (in the 05 season).

Ballast isn't a bad thing. Crucial to getting your weight distribution right.

Which is exactly why they build the cars as light as possible because it allows them to place more ballast in the car (a higher percentage of the total weight) and gives them a much higher degree of control of how the car acts on track because they control more of its weight.
(quick note they use tungsten for their ballast which has a density of 19.25g/cm^3)
So you do a quick calculation on the volume of the plates and multiply by the weight of tungsten, it does seem very feasible for them to achieve 140-150kg of ballast.

Whilst your correct in that you wouldnt need to absorb as much energy if the car lost weight, and so the energy impacting structures could be weaker safely, how on earth do you think the FIA is going to going to justify making the cars weaker to the general public who do not understand the technical details that lighter car means less energy to absorb so they are just as safe..

Hi mate, I doubt they would need to justify it to the public: just say they're going faster next season
That will be justification enough, as the pinnacle of automotive technology, they should be constantly improving and getting faster (not 6 seconds slower).

The crash zones reduce the impact forces by an amount much larger than what their weight adds to it.Bear in mind also that the cars all weight more or less the same due to the minimum weight reg.Anyway, if an improved crash structure weighing 1kg extra reduces a 20g impact to a 19g impact - its already saved approx 700kgf of impact force.

Hi man, I reckon they have gone overboard with safety. As you said the cars get heavier every year because they supposedly become safer.Is this necessary though? Were they not safe enough in the previous season or something???
(If this is the case why were they allowing the cars to race then)

Let me know what ya think!
Cheers for all the replies