2015 Hungarian Grand Prix - 24-26 July

[Phil]

Lol you serious? 50-50 even after the stewards gave him a drive through penalty and lewis even came out and said it was his fault?

Because, he could have avoided it [if he had better known in what state his tires were going to be]. IMO, race re-starts are always tricky - cold tires, you see it happen time and time again, when people overestimate the grip or temperatures of their fresh tires. They even said something along these lines on the BBC prior to the start of the race, that the first corner is going to be interesting and usually leads to collisions. Hamilton is not a driver who wanted to "shunt daniel off the track". It happened because when he got on the brakes and his tires started to lock, he became a passenger and could only watch as the trajectory of the car will go straight into Dans car. I for one am happy that Dan was able to continue his race with minimal impact; for Hamilton, he was very lucky that even despite the penalty and the front-wing change, he was able to fight himself back into the points (6th). If Nicos didn't have that puncture, that 6th would have been a 7th.

yesterday rosberg proved why he will never win a world championship. on radio he is being told that hamilton will switch to prime and immediately he responds i too want prime . what a stupid guy ?. hamilton is reducing gap and gap to front is building but in last stint you want prime. its like a child goes for candy and another child asks for same.

It's a harsh verdict. I can relate to his mindset. He was no where in the race. What baffles me most is how he seemingly did nothing to take the fight to those Ferraris. No radio team calls, nothing (or they weren't played). This could have been a brilliant day for him; Outscoring Lewis by a huge margin and taking the WDC lead. Yet he never showed that he had it to take the fight to either Ferrari. The result being that half way through the race, Hamilton had fought himself right back behind Rosberg - on a track as difficult to overtake like Hungary. He knew he didn't have the pace. So the logic must have been; If they are on equal tires, overtaking the same car is going to be difficult around here, despite him not having the pace; It means that in a straight line, Hamilton will not be able to overtake. The safety car also came out at a seriously bad time for him; A few laps later and the softs would have been a no-brainer. But at that point, it was a stretch, not sure if the virtual safetycar would be enough to clear the debris. He still had a 10 second gap at that point (because Hamilton couldn't get out of the pit due to a potential unsafe release). It was the real safety car that changed it, bunching up the field. But even then; You have to say, being on medium would at least see that both Mercedes would be always in a similar state tire wise. If he had gone on softs, he might have had an initial pace advantage (maybe, although with his lack of pace who knows) but if his tires had gone off towards the end, he might have found himself vulnerable vs. a Lewis on better tires = better grip in the corner, closer before the DRS zone = easier overtake. In theory. So I don't think mirroring Lewis on the medium tire was that stupid. Of course, hindsight shows us that it was stupid, as he could have challenged for the win and not be under threat by Ricciardo.

Tough race for him. Though with his pace; IMO it would have been a lottery win for him to win this race. At no point this weekend did I feel he deserved it due to his performance. IMO of course.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

yesterday rosberg proved why he will never win a world championship. on radio he is being told that hamilton will switch to prime and immediately he responds i too want prime . what a stupid guy ?. hamilton is reducing gap and gap to front is building but in last stint you want prime. its like a child goes for candy and another child asks for same.

It's a harsh verdict. I can relate to his mindset. He was no where in the race. What baffles me most is how he seemingly did nothing to take the fight to those Ferraris. No radio team calls, nothing (or they weren't played). This could have been a brilliant day for him; Outscoring Lewis by a huge margin and taking the WDC lead. Yet he never showed that he had it to take the fight to either Ferrari. The result being that half way through the race, Hamilton had fought himself right back behind Rosberg - on a track as difficult to overtake like Hungary. He knew he didn't have the pace. So the logic must have been; If they are on equal tires, overtaking the same car is going to be difficult around here, despite him not having the pace; It means that in a straight line, Hamilton will not be able to overtake. The safety car also came out at a seriously bad time for him; A few laps later and the softs would have been a no-brainer. But at that point, it was a stretch, not sure if the virtual safetycar would be enough to clear the debris. He still had a 10 second gap at that point (because Hamilton couldn't get out of the pit due to a potential unsafe release). It was the real safety car that changed it, bunching up the field. But even then; You have to say, being on medium would at least see that both Mercedes would be always in a similar state tire wise. If he had gone on softs, he might have had an initial pace advantage (maybe, although with his lack of pace who knows) but if his tires had gone off towards the end, he might have found himself vulnerable vs. a Lewis on better tires = better grip in the corner, closer before the DRS zone = easier overtake. In theory. So I don't think mirroring Lewis on the medium tire was that stupid. Of course, hindsight shows us that it was stupid, as he could have challenged for the win and not be under threat by Ricciardo.

Tough race for him. Though with his pace; IMO it would have been a lottery win for him to win this race. At no point this weekend did I feel he deserved it due to his performance. IMO of course.

I have a simpler take on Nico's situation. This isn't a track he is particularly good at "RACING ON". In 2013, he qualified 4th, almost 4 tenths slower than Lewis who got the pole and he retired with an engine failure where Lewis won. IN 2014, Lewis had an engine problem because of which he started from pit lane and went on podium! Nico starting on pole, got into traffic after Safety car. To his horror, he got stuck behind JEV and couldn't clear him at all and Lewis when got stuck behind JEV, did a bold move and demonstrated how to overtake here. Same this year's race, Lewis kept pulling bold moves and Nico was simply losing behind the Ferraris. Even after safety car restart, despite being in the DRS range, he didn't pose any danger and simply messed up with Ricciardo.
So, this is simply not a track where he is capable of racing. He doesn't know what it requires to race here and that failed him in setting up his car leading to a miserable weekend.

[komninosm]

I don't think he drove into RIC. If you watch the replay the tyres were locked up long before RIC came into view. Also if you look on Hamilton's steering angle, it wasn't straight like Maldonados. Danny is a good overtaker but after today i think he just chucks the car without much consideration. It's more ballsy than skillful driving from him.

anyhow, looks like lewis is going to be more distracted this year: http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/ce ... 7458001271

I agree with you. I think that Ric/Ham incident was 50-50;therefore should be classified as a racing incident. Ricciardo took a different much tighter line in turn 1 than other drivers throughout the race. In addition, there were lots of space at the left of him he could have prevented the accident in my opinion. However, Hamilton shouldn't have let a renault powered car to catch him at a straight

Lol you serious? 50-50 even after the stewards gave him a drive through penalty and lewis even came out and said it was his fault?

Why would Ricciardo even go all the way on the outside on the corner to give as much as Hamilton needs to keep his car on the track on the inside? Does he need to roll out the red carpet for the Mercs? Seriously the Rosberg incident he dived in from far back but he was nowhere to hitting Rosberg on the dive in, he kept the car on track and still allowed himself decent acceleration going into turn 2 (most drivers who dive bomb either hit the car they are trying to overtake or they have already lost the corner with the other driver coming back on inside line).

What Rosberg should have been smart about is leaving Ricciardo enough space (Ricciardo was already at the edge of the track limits so he did not have any further to go left) and either if he got overtaken held onto second place or third place because in the context of the championship he would have gained points on Lewis. If he was even more smarter, he would have taken the option tires instead of the mediums for the final stint. Dumb decision there.

Maybe Ricciardo should just sit by and hold station 2 seconds behind Rosberg for the remaining 10 laps because his Renault engine obviously wasn't going to let him overtake him.

LOL are YOU serious?
Ric took the inside line in that turn plenty of times and other drivers didn't crash into him, but gave him room. He gave no room to Hamilton who he saw and knew needed to be let get off the corner and easily pass him on the exit. Same with Rosberg. Plenty of drivers get overtaken like than from the inside and at the end of the corner there is no room for them and they just break a little and stick behind the preceding car without slashing their tires from behind. There's no need to leave him enough room. He was dead behind, he should break.
Ric should have certainly gotten a penalty and the Ham penalty was avoidable too. If everyone drove like Ric there would have been at least 2 more crashes on him...

[zoro_f1]

[Andres125sx]

Sainz should be really upset, STR is showing some favouritism for Verstappen

I´m not talking about the three consecutive races Sainz has retired because his car stopped or failed. I´m not talking about the 3 seconds the team lost on his first pitstop. I´m talking about the supposed preference the driver leading usually have, wich was not the case today, Sainz was ahead, but they called to box Verstappen first, wich caused the undercut so he overtook Sainz. This combined with the 3 seconds Sainz lost in the pitstop put him in traffic wich ruined his race completely. Then a new DNF.

He´s doing great, but with 4 DNFs in 10 races all due to mechanical/electrical failures and the team favouring his team mate...

utter nonsense,

Sainz clearly had an issue and the team knew about it for quite some time. Verstappen complained early on in the race that he was held back due to Sainz's car's being a lot slower

And obviously when any driver complain about being held behind his team mate it´s true and he should be allowed to pass...

Sainz was also held by another driver in front of him so Max´s comment was BS, both of them were held behind traffic, but the team, instead of stopping Sainz first so he undercut the driver in front, did it with Max so he undercut Sainz


If you think Sainz car had some problem in first laps that´s the only thing could be reasonable, but I don´t think so, he was fast enough for the whole race before the car failed, the only problem was with that strategy and the slow pitstop put him behind Max, and also in traffic, ruining his race when he had done an great start, much better than Max´s one

[iotar__]

utter nonsense, Sainz clearly had an issue and the team knew about it for quite some time. Verstappen complained early on in the race that he was held back due to Sainz's car's being a lot slower

Utter nonsense yourself Identify "quite some time" in lap numbers please. These were team orders in favour of a driver that lost the start, was behind on merit and couldn't overtake on track because he is a promoted chosen one, simple as that. Later issues had nothing to do with it.

If there were issues with Sainz's car: Verstappen should have been able to overtake him or they could have used regular team orders. Instead they preferred to use concealed ones in the form of undercut, it's easier to sell it to ignorant crown that it was some on merit achievement and not a team deciding which driver to put 100% artificially in front.

[Jonnycraig]

I don't think he drove into RIC. If you watch the replay the tyres were locked up long before RIC came into view. Also if you look on Hamilton's steering angle, it wasn't straight like Maldonados. Danny is a good overtaker but after today i think he just chucks the car without much consideration. It's more ballsy than skillful driving from him.

Never bought the myth of Ricciardo being a particularly good overtaken myself. His 'technique' is to simply kamikaze up the inside and make the other driver take evasive action to avoid a crash. Ultimately the collision yesterday was caused by Rosberg being so far out of position due to the need to take huge evasive action or have an out of control Red Bull parked in his sidepod.

It's a wider issue IMO, as Verstappen has taken this technique on, nearly causing a nasty collision with Ericsson in a China, when Verstappen threw it from so far back, Ericsson had to turn fully out of the corner, and causing a huge collison trying to kamikaze Grosjean at Monaco and getting it completely wrong;

[Phil]

I think it's a valid move. Every time Ricciardo did the move, there was plenty of room vs the cars he was overtaking. If the other don't want to have Ricciardo shoot up the inside, they are free to cover the inside line (as Hamilton did; though he had cold tires which resulted in the lock and straight trajectory). Rosberg shouldn't have "chopped" off Ricciardo, ultimately, he paid the price because of it. If Hamilton had "chopped" Rosbergs front wing in Bahrain 2014, he would have likely suffered the exact same consequence as Rosberg did in Ricciardos case.

Ricciardo is an excellent overtaker IMO. Yes, some of the moves are ballsy, but they need to be at times. Last year, he showed some very good maneuvers, one of them being when he overtook Vettel on the track by throwing him a dummy, then going on the other side to complete the overtake. They all can't go right, but he's pulled off more overtakes than overtakes that went wrong.

[jato]

Lol you serious? 50-50 even after the stewards gave him a drive through penalty and lewis even came out and said it was his fault?

Because, he could have avoided it [if he had better known in what state his tires were going to be]. IMO, race re-starts are always tricky - cold tires, you see it happen time and time again, when people overestimate the grip or temperatures of their fresh tires. They even said something along these lines on the BBC prior to the start of the race, that the first corner is going to be interesting and usually leads to collisions. Hamilton is not a driver who wanted to "shunt daniel off the track". It happened because when he got on the brakes and his tires started to lock, he became a passenger and could only watch as the trajectory of the car will go straight into Dans car. I for one am happy that Dan was able to continue his race with minimal impact; for Hamilton, he was very lucky that even despite the penalty and the front-wing change, he was able to fight himself back into the points (6th). If Nicos didn't have that puncture, that 6th would have been a 7th.

I absolutely agree with you in that Lewis's contact with Ricciardo was without any malice or intentional of any sort as well as tire warm up of their respective compounds - I do not however agree the apportion of blame being 50-50. If it were 50-50 that would mean there would be half of that apportion of blame would be on Ricciardo's side to avoid the contact which IMO there was nothing he could do to avoid the contact because of Lewis understeering into him.

Never bought the myth of Ricciardo being a particularly good overtaken myself. His 'technique' is to simply kamikaze up the inside and make the other driver take evasive action to avoid a crash. Ultimately the collision yesterday was caused by Rosberg being so far out of position due to the need to take huge evasive action or have an out of control Red Bull parked in his sidepod.

It's a wider issue IMO, as Verstappen has taken this technique on, nearly causing a nasty collision with Ericsson in a China, when Verstappen threw it from so far back, Ericsson had to turn fully out of the corner, and causing a huge collison trying to kamikaze Grosjean at Monaco and getting it completely wrong;

I don't get how you consider Rosberg being out of position due to the need to take evasive action. If you watch the actual pass Ricciardo was nowhere near to hitting Rosberg at the apex. Not only did he dive bomb, he controlled the car and kept it on track while maintaining enough momentum to accelerate at a decent rate towards turn two - hence why Rosberg assumed the 'racing line' - and drifted across to prevent Ricciardo having a go into turn two as well.

Verstappen's collision was Ericsson in China is a poor comparison. Verstappen's dive bomb was at a corner with a tighter corner and apex where there was far less room. That was bound to end in tears and it had nowhere the amount of space that turn one does at Hungary. A better comparison was Ricciardo's dive against Kimi in Monaco. That I would compare with Verstappen but not this one.

I don't mind Ricciardo having those attempts, he has been successful the whole race. Why should he not keep doing it? If drivers are expecting it or not, why don't they cover the inside line? If Rosberg was smart he would have gone back on the inside on the exit with being quicker on the throttle and then crossed to block Ricciardo into turn two.

So if you think Ricciardo is a myth in overtaking despite all the overtakes he did in the race and last year, who do you rate at overtaking? Or you would rather drivers just sit back behind each other until the race ends?

[Phil]

I absolutely agree with you in that Lewis's contact with Ricciardo was without any malice or intentional of any sort as well as tire warm up of their respective compounds - I do not however agree the apportion of blame being 50-50. If it were 50-50 that would mean there would be half of that apportion of blame would be on Ricciardo's side to avoid the contact which IMO there was nothing he could do to avoid the contact because of Lewis understeering into him.

I didn't necessarely agree about the 50/50 - more of it perhaps in my view being a racing-incident. The part of which I see Ricciardo as also a bit (a tiny bit) responsible is because he overtook on the outside - knowing full well what may or may not happen. Being on the outside into a corner means the inside car will always drift towards the outside - sure - the rules are clear, you need to leave a cars width of room, but when you commit to a corner (prior to finding the overtaker on your outside), you are already partly a passenger as velocity and grip will dictate what line you will find yourself on when coming out of the corner. If the car on the inside is still ahead, the "chop" by the inside car is usually tolerated (see Bahrain Ham/Ros or even Ricciardo during many overtakes taking the line effectively Hamilton took into that corner whilst defending) as long as no contact is made - or is, in the case of Ricciardo/Rosberg in this very race.

The hardness of the collision (Hamilton went straight into the side of Ricciardo due to the lockup) IMO makes the penalty justified. Though I think circumstance played a role and Ricciardo could have been aware of that [putting himself at risk on the outside] - just as Hamilton who obviously overestimated the grip on braking.

[Schuttelberg]

yesterday rosberg proved why he will never win a world championship. on radio he is being told that hamilton will switch to prime and immediately he responds i too want prime . what a stupid guy ?. hamilton is reducing gap and gap to front is building but in last stint you want prime. its like a child goes for candy and another child asks for same.

Toto Wolff said that there were far too many laps to do on the option, so the prime tyres were heating in the pot. Plus, Rosberg felt he was more comfortable on the prime.

Personally, I think he was just trying to make sure he finishes ahead of Hamilton and dissolve all variants. But, I share your opinion that he should have gone for the win. Not for the first time that he and Mercedes have demonstrated that once they lose the lead or are pushed out of their comfort zone, they really seem to capitulate. At the moment, Mercedes have a distinct advantage in terms of speed on Saturday and Sunday. But, I feel that if Ferrari can close the gap a little on them, Vettel might start bothering Rosberg.

[wickedz50]

yesterday rosberg proved why he will never win a world championship. on radio he is being told that hamilton will switch to prime and immediately he responds i too want prime . what a stupid guy ?. hamilton is reducing gap and gap to front is building but in last stint you want prime. its like a child goes for candy and another child asks for same.

Toto Wolff said that there were far too many laps to do on the option, so the prime tyres were heating in the pot. Plus, Rosberg felt he was more comfortable on the prime.

Personally, I think he was just trying to make sure he finishes ahead of Hamilton and dissolve all variants. But, I share your opinion that he should have gone for the win. Not for the first time that he and Mercedes have demonstrated that once they lose the lead or are pushed out of their comfort zone, they really seem to capitulate. At the moment, Mercedes have a distinct advantage in terms of speed on Saturday and Sunday. But, I feel that if Ferrari can close the gap a little on them, Vettel might start bothering Rosberg.

With a cracker of a car easily monstrous beast among the rest in the present era formula, Merc crew should be able to manage the drivers effectively. I just hope things do not turn into 2007 again. Ferrari will catch up eventually sooner or later and so will others too in matter of months. What surprise will the summer break bring back to this year's championship needs to be seen?
A few more incidents like Hungary means more headache for Merc crew. On the current point system a 42 point lead can evaporate away very fast and not to forget the double point finish at Abu Dhabi. 2 more wins for Ferrari back to back with some DNF for Merc team (yet to happen this season), enough for Merc to hand back the trophy to Ferrari.

[ismail1991]

With a cracker of a car easily monstrous beast among the rest in the present era formula, Merc crew should be able to manage the drivers effectively. I just hope things do not turn into 2007 again. Ferrari will catch up eventually sooner or later and so will others too in matter of months. What surprise will the summer break bring back to this year's championship needs to be seen?
A few more incidents like Hungary means more headache for Merc crew. On the current point system a 42 point lead can evaporate away very fast and not to forget the double point finish at Abu Dhabi. 2 more wins for Ferrari back to back with some DNF for Merc team (yet to happen this season), enough for Merc to hand back the trophy to Ferrari.

As far as I know, Abu Dhabi will not be double point this year. In addition, if Mercedes solves their start problems, then they will be in front at least 30 second from anyone else.

[ChrisF1]

. On the contrary it's Ricciardo that should have been more careful about his speed and positioning because he was the one who caused this collision after very poor overtaking attempt that did consist of:
- dive inside he could not control, if he could have he would have been inside taking the corner
- out-braking himself and cutting across a car he was trying to overtake, I assure you it was not on purpose this is where Rosberg left him space
- founding himself both behind and as you put it "on the edge of track limits" only through his own fault
- missing the apex and accelerating into back of the car that took a normal line

Asking for leaving more space is basically asking to let Ricciardo past which is silly, there was no reasonable space/speed combination that would have made the pass possible anyway, that's why I call it "attempted nothing", driving into other car and hoping to survive. Like Monaco or GB start, several others or the whole pass to begin with.

I'm only semi regular on this site but I've been thinking you're just a troll for quite a while now - this post confirms it.

You're seriously saying that Ricciardo cut across Rosberg?

Where was Ricciardo supposed to go, drive off track?

Anybody remember Rosberg doing this to (Alonso?) somebody in Bahrain and the radio calls were "He didn't leave room, supposed to leave a cars width" - well let's look at the images and see if Rosberg left a cars width...




Seriously Iotar, this is a very good forum and trolling attempts to spoil the vibe are pretty pointless.

[wickedz50]

Anyone on the new start restrictions coming up from Spa onwards?