Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

[Schuttelberg]

On to Vettel; I think it's fantastic what he is achieving. I've always rated him highly, especially witnessing some of his qualifying runs in that RedBull. Then again; It always takes a strong team-mate to judge effectively how good someone is. I highly rate Webber, especially in 2010 and parts of 2012, but for probably many reasons, he couldn't take the fight to Seb. Right now, things are working out well for him: And I see Vettel as one of the reasons why Ferrari is doing that well. Not because Alonso wasn't a terrific driver, but perhaps because the new energy Vettel brings into the team (as well as the other changes that were made to the team) have turned things around, given them a new spark. A bit like a fresh and well needed start for the entire team.

I think Mark Webber was an outstanding driver. His stocks in 2004-05 were extremely high and if he had some fortune with his career choices, he would have been at the pointy end a lot earlier than 2010. Like you said, there are a number of reasons why Webber couldn't keep up with Vettel.

The relationship with Ferrari? I always felt it would work. He's that sort of chap. And, Ferrari needed it badly. Just to compare with Alonso, and this is just my personal opinion- I always felt that if Alonso fell out with Ferrari, it would be bad but if he started to win at Ferrari regularly he would roll of a few championships easily. I always thought it to be extreme for some reason.

Has this made my estimation of him go up? Well, not really. I know he's very talented, but the only measure we have of a driver is when compared directly to his team-mate. I don't rate Hamilton highly because of the championships he's won; I rate him highly especially because of how he raced and performed against Alonso in that rookie year of 2007. Everything that he has shown so far, has IMO added to that impression. Vettel in that sense is a hard one to figure: On one hand, he is undoubtedly extremely talented and quick, but Kimi is not that yardstick for me unfortunately. Not after being utterly demolished by Alonso the year before and being nigh on neck at neck with Massa during his earlier years at Ferrari. If anything, my estimation of Kimi has gone down a lot. It would be great if Ferrari took the plunge and signed someone with real potential; not a number 2 driver, but someone who shows promise to being quick. Not sure that is Bottas (as I have commented on in the silly season topic).

I think it's impossible to evaluate people by that measure. In my opinion, Mark was driving at a very high level in 2010 and whatever his issues might have been, he had the same car and Sebastian perhaps adapted better. I think it takes an unbelievable talent to beat Webber by the margins he was beating him with. I'm not a big fan of team mate comparisons anyway, because things change from year to year and it just doesn't add up. Brundle beat Senna, Frentzen beat Schumacher etc. etc. I think, Sebastian would welcome a rematch with Daniel and there's often lot of talk about Ferrari not wanting to ruffle his feathers, but I think that all these guys have so much self belief in themselves that they wouldn't block one another. Also, I don't think Seb is that powerful at Ferrari, yet. I get your point though, may be a couple of years with Lewis as team mate and he matches/equals/beats him? It would enhance his legacy may be in the eyes of some, but for me personally race wins are enough.

As for Kimi? I'll just say the saying 'Most promised, least delivered' fits him well. Dare I say, he's always been very over rated and over paid.

[Schuttelberg]

Excellent post Andres 125sx!

[Andres125sx]

I've read Fernando's comments about Ferrari, how he doesn't rate Vettel amongst the best F1 drivers, etc. etc. I think, Fernando is a little emotional. He's convinced that he deserved the 2010 and 2012 championships. He was very big on Ferrari, it's brand value and the prestige alone of being able to be part of the history of the Scuderia. He even said it would be his last team, because anywhere else would be a step downward?

Over the years, I've learnt to take Fernando's words with a pinch of salt. He's sometimes a little political with his comments, while sometimes he gets carried away in his emotions. At least, he has a personality and doesn't just shove vanilla PR down our throats. I still remember how enraged he was at Ferrari and Schumacher in 2006. So much so, that even after winning the championship in Brazil he went on team radio to say, 'I wish you the very best, unless the car is red.' At least something on those lines. His rivalry with Schumacher was well documented. Yet, today he recalls it as his best time and Schumacher his greatest rival.

I'm quite sure, once Fernando hangs his helmet, he'll remember his time at the Scuderia fondly. It obviously won't all be rosy, but he really did come into his own in his Ferrari days, easily his best as a driver and he made a lot of fans in the process. His popularity soared. So, I'll give until Fernando hangs his helmet to hear what he has to say about Vettel and Red Bull or Ferrari for that matter. If he still doesn't respect them, it's his problem, I don't think either Ferrari or Vettel would care much.

During his Renault years he was a truly *sshole, speaking sh*t about Ferrari and Michael all the time. Now he is more mature but he is still very impulsive saying sometimes things he should not say. Ferrari is bigger than him and he will be rapidly forgotten because of his attitude and because he didnt win a championship, even if he deserved one or two.

I think Alonso is a lot less emotional than people tend to think. He simply defend his team.

When he was driving a blue car, he criticized some moves from Ferrari and Schumacher (can someone criticize him for that?). When he drove a red car he always said how big Ferrari is. Now he drives for McLaren and always support the team even when results are embarrasing.

That´s not being emotional, that´s being a team player.

[Schuttelberg]

I've read Fernando's comments about Ferrari, how he doesn't rate Vettel amongst the best F1 drivers, etc. etc. I think, Fernando is a little emotional. He's convinced that he deserved the 2010 and 2012 championships. He was very big on Ferrari, it's brand value and the prestige alone of being able to be part of the history of the Scuderia. He even said it would be his last team, because anywhere else would be a step downward?

Over the years, I've learnt to take Fernando's words with a pinch of salt. He's sometimes a little political with his comments, while sometimes he gets carried away in his emotions. At least, he has a personality and doesn't just shove vanilla PR down our throats. I still remember how enraged he was at Ferrari and Schumacher in 2006. So much so, that even after winning the championship in Brazil he went on team radio to say, 'I wish you the very best, unless the car is red.' At least something on those lines. His rivalry with Schumacher was well documented. Yet, today he recalls it as his best time and Schumacher his greatest rival.

I'm quite sure, once Fernando hangs his helmet, he'll remember his time at the Scuderia fondly. It obviously won't all be rosy, but he really did come into his own in his Ferrari days, easily his best as a driver and he made a lot of fans in the process. His popularity soared. So, I'll give until Fernando hangs his helmet to hear what he has to say about Vettel and Red Bull or Ferrari for that matter. If he still doesn't respect them, it's his problem, I don't think either Ferrari or Vettel would care much.

During his Renault years he was a truly *sshole, speaking sh*t about Ferrari and Michael all the time. Now he is more mature but he is still very impulsive saying sometimes things he should not say. Ferrari is bigger than him and he will be rapidly forgotten because of his attitude and because he didnt win a championship, even if he deserved one or two.

I think Alonso is a lot less emotional than people tend to think. He simply defend his team.

When he was driving a blue car, he criticized some moves from Ferrari and Schumacher (can someone criticize him for that?). When he drove a red car he always said how big Ferrari is. Now he drives for McLaren and always support the team even when results are embarrasing.

That´s not being emotional, that´s being a team player.

Unfortunately, to be a team player you don't need to throw the mockers on another team. He was quite clearly bothered by Ferrari in his Renault days. I don't think he should have said some of the things he said. Same with McLaren and Lewis. IIRC, he said he wanted to see Massa win the title because that meant Hamilton wouldn't win it. A few years later when he was battling Vettel, he suddenly garnered respect for Hamilton. Just like he garnered respect for Ferrari after bad mouthing them. I understand if he's emotional and gets carried away and says stupid things from time to time, but please don't put a spin on things and make it out to be that he was simply being a team player. He wasn't.

[Andres125sx]

Ok agree with you about his renault days, but he was a child, take that into account. Also, Schumacher was not a clean and fair driver to respect when you´re fighting for the tittle with him, he did some ugly moves wich deserved some tough words.

McLaren days.... I´ll skip the discussion because there´s too much to consider, but he never lost respect with Lewis, it was the team who upset him with some questionable moves wich harmed him. Even the team principal apologized some years after, but his relationship with Lewis has always been much better than media tried to show.

[wickedz50]

Does anyone remember Shumi's move on JV the European GP 1997? he was as young as Alonso in 2006 and was disqualified that year for such a collision causing move. Was he a saint then? he changed over the years to become the best. Alonso similar in nature over the years.

[Schuttelberg]

Ok agree with you about his renault days, but he was a child, take that into account. Also, Schumacher was not a clean and fair driver to respect when you´re fighting for the tittle with him, he did some ugly moves wich deserved some tough words.

McLaren days.... I´ll skip the discussion because there´s too much to consider, but he never lost respect with Lewis, it was the team who upset him with some questionable moves wich harmed him. Even the team principal apologized some years after, but his relationship with Lewis has always been much better than media tried to show.

The Schumacher-Alonso rivalry has a few sides to it-

1) What Schumacher did at Monaco deserved a punishment and he took it. It doesn't make it okay, but in terms of points, he only lost at Monaco, didn't gain. Neither in terms of result, nor reputation which already ran poor with Schumacher as you point out.

2) Alonso benefited from team orders that year with Fisichella (Germany, China) while Schumacher didn't. Ferrari could have easily boxed him at Turkey in Istanbul but they gave Massa preference, thereby giving Massa his first win and allowing Schumacher to finish behind Alonso. Massa was faster that weekend and deserved the win but Ferrari's all hailed No.1 & No.2 policy was happening more at Renault, than Ferrari. These are fine details, that escape the casual fan.

3) Alonso was involved in brake testing with Robert Doornbos that year, and in terms of driving, it doesn't get dirtier.

4) Lastly, most importantly, when I read your point about 'team player', I instantly disagreed because although Alonso was better than Schumacher in 2006, he was anything but a team player. While he was accusing his team of sabotage, Michael Schumacher was consoling his mechanics after a blown engine in Suzuka while leading the GP and effectively dropping the championship. (Just like you point out the happenings at McLaren, mind you, Schumacher had been pushed out of Ferrari, yet he bowed out with grace.)

On the McLaren subject- I agree with you that a lot of things happened at McLaren. It would be foolish to blame Alonso alone for it. In fact, I was a bit sympathetic about his situation, but he did blackmail his own team.

There was also, the despicable episode of crash gate and his eventual Ferrari departure where there were plenty of instances of broken ties with certain Ferrari people. Trust me, I'm not one of those that believe Ferrari were happy to see Alonso leave but I'm also not one of those that believe everyone at Ferrari was truly happy with Alonso. It was simply a case of during that time, in those circumstances neither felt the relationship could be carried on.

Alonso is a lot of things. A brilliant driver, deserving world champion (perhaps deserves more championships than he has), a man who genuinely cares about the sport, it's fans and his peers but one thing he is not and that is a 'team player.' There's nothing wrong or right about it because F1 is a team sport where the driver's championship is the most important prize. So, the sport itself polarizes it's values, but let's not mix facts with opinions to suit an argument.

[Schuttelberg]

Does anyone remember Shumi's move on JV the European GP 1997? he was as young as Alonso in 2006 and was disqualified that year for such a collision causing move. Was he a saint then? he changed over the years to become the best. Alonso similar in nature over the years.

He regrets it. Doesn't make it right. I'm a huge fan of his but that doesn't make wrong right. He was clearly trying to become world champion again there, even if it meant cheating. But he didn't go against his own team. Both Alonso and Schumacher are right and wrong on their own fronts and in their own ways. Just because Schumacher was wrong, doesn't mean it makes Alonso right and vice versa.

There's no doubt that on track Schumacher was dirtier than Alonso. I've mentioned that before that Alonso's spatial awareness and his wheel to wheel racing is as good as anyone in the history of the sport. But in a closed room when a team is trying to find faults and weaknesses, a team owner rather have Schumacher than Alonso.

[ChrisF1]

With comparisons, I think it is best to compare Vettel with the first Ferrari-Schumacher season. Let's compare the situation going into 1996 and 2015.

1996 - dominant Williams with 2 drivers taking most wins. Ferrari hadn't won the title in years, but had a few near misses and had spent the past 4 years running around as the 2nd-4th best car every weekend.

2015 - dominant Mercedes with 2 drivers taking most wins. Ferrari hadn't won the title in years, but had a few near misses and had spent the past 4 years running around as the 2nd-4th best car every weekend.

So here we are, lets look at the situation at half way point.

1996 - dominant Williams is class of the field, and Williams had won all but two races. Schumacher had managed to win one race.

2015 - dominant Mercedes is class of the field, and they had won all but two races. Vettel has managed to win two races.

Exactly the same as when Alonso joined Ferrari

2010- dominant Red Bull is class of the filed, and they had won all but two races. Alonso had managed to win two races (mid season, five victories at the end of the season)


And we all know how that ended...


That comparison with Schumacher era was also done with Alonso. I never liked it, different eras, different cars, different rules, different drivers.... it´s absurd


Now the same with Vettel


Looking at the past is worth for nothing

This is where you've gone wrong.

You cannot ignore the fact that with 2 races remaining of 2010, there were 5 drivers who could win the title across three teams.

Now tell me that the Red Bull was class of the field (I'm talking whole package - speed and reliability)

[CBeck113]

Seb's doing what he is being paid for, Kimi is trying but not succeeding...and Alonso did the same. At the end of the day there are a certain number of races in which the drivers need to score as many points as possible. If they do so then they are good, if not then they are in danger of losing their job (see Kimi). As to Alonso in Ferrari: his strength was not just his speed but his error-free drives, especially 2012, for me the best season for a single driver without the reward at the end. BUT, he did not win the title, and that is a statistic which cannot be ignored or excused ("team made the mistake", "he was blocked" etc.): he didn't win it, just like his other years at SF. He learned and moved on.

To a more important subject: how much would Ferrari pay Sauber or Marussia to park wrong in the starting grid? If they did it themselves it would be pretty obvious, but if it was a customer (maybe even Torro Rosso if they buy Ferrari engines next year) it would be difficult to prove.

[Andres125sx]

The Schumacher-Alonso rivalry has a few sides to it-

1) What Schumacher did at Monaco deserved a punishment and he took it. It doesn't make it okay, but in terms of points, he only lost at Monaco, didn't gain. Neither in terms of result, nor reputation which already ran poor with Schumacher as you point out.

2) Alonso benefited from team orders that year with Fisichella (Germany, China) while Schumacher didn't. Ferrari could have easily boxed him at Turkey in Istanbul but they gave Massa preference, thereby giving Massa his first win and allowing Schumacher to finish behind Alonso. Massa was faster that weekend and deserved the win but Ferrari's all hailed No.1 & No.2 policy was happening more at Renault, than Ferrari. These are fine details, that escape the casual fan.

3) Alonso was involved in brake testing with Robert Doornbos that year, and in terms of driving, it doesn't get dirtier.

4) Lastly, most importantly, when I read your point about 'team player', I instantly disagreed because although Alonso was better than Schumacher in 2006, he was anything but a team player. While he was accusing his team of sabotage, Michael Schumacher was consoling his mechanics after a blown engine in Suzuka while leading the GP and effectively dropping the championship. (Just like you point out the happenings at McLaren, mind you, Schumacher had been pushed out of Ferrari, yet he bowed out with grace.)

On the McLaren subject- I agree with you that a lot of things happened at McLaren. It would be foolish to blame Alonso alone for it. In fact, I was a bit sympathetic about his situation, but he did blackmail his own team.

There was also, the despicable episode of crash gate and his eventual Ferrari departure where there were plenty of instances of broken ties with certain Ferrari people. Trust me, I'm not one of those that believe Ferrari were happy to see Alonso leave but I'm also not one of those that believe everyone at Ferrari was truly happy with Alonso. It was simply a case of during that time, in those circumstances neither felt the relationship could be carried on.

Alonso is a lot of things. A brilliant driver, deserving world champion (perhaps deserves more championships than he has), a man who genuinely cares about the sport, it's fans and his peers but one thing he is not and that is a 'team player.' There's nothing wrong or right about it because F1 is a team sport where the driver's championship is the most important prize. So, the sport itself polarizes it's values, but let's not mix facts with opinions to suit an argument.

1- No comments needed, agree

2- Ferrari could have provided TOs in Turkey??? Sorry but no. Massa was first, and Schumacher third. In between it was Alonso, so considering the points at that season were 10, 8, 6 it would have been useless, they simply would have gifted a victory to Alonso

Also, you must remember a very different Germany GP. Fischo was 5th and Alonso 7th so not sure what TOs are you refering to

3- You must refer to a brake test Alonso did in FP after Doornbos obstructed Alonso when neither of them was doing a fast lap. Childish, agree, but not what you´re suggesting

4- You should provide a quote about Alonso accusing his team of sabotage, because I´ve heard that comment many times but never read a proper source. Sure it´s not media BS?

And about crashgate you can´t be serious. Alonso was benefitted from that, but it doesn´t mean he was implyed. It was Briatore´s fault, Alonso didn´t even need to know, so he probably didn´t know. As FIA investigation dictated. If you have more info please share.


I agree with you in your final statement, please do not mix facts and opinions, most of your argumentation was incorrect at least. Alonso did some things he shouldn´t have done when he was young, but that was a long time ago. Since then he´s been a perfect team player. Ask Ferrari, or better, look at Ferrari people reaction when Alonso pass next to them. It speaks itself. Or McLaren people, if he would have been that egocentric person some people suggest, they would have never signed him again. Instead of that, the team principal apologized in public to sign him again. What else do you need to conclude who was main fault in 2007?

[Schuttelberg]

1- No comments needed, agree

2- Ferrari could have provided TOs in Turkey??? Sorry but no. Massa was first, and Schumacher third. In between it was Alonso, so considering the points at that season were 10, 8, 6 it would have been useless, they simply would have gifted a victory to Alonso

Unfortunately, the final results don't show the full picture. Michael Schumacher was behind Felipe Massa for the first part of the race but carrying a lot more fuel. Alonso was behind him at that stage. Then a SC was brought out due to some incident which I obviously can't remember after all these years and Ferrari had to box both their drivers. Since Massa was ahead, he got preference and Schumacher had to wait. As a result, Alonso was able to leap frog Schumacher in the pits. Considering the speed of the Ferrari's, they could have chosen to leave Massa out and boxed Schumacher. The result would still have been a 1-3 but with Schumacher and Massa in reverse positions.

Before you pass a judgement on me, I'm not trying to imply that Schumacher 'deserved' the victory. Massa was not as fast as Schumacher (watch Michael's lap in Q2 which was a second faster than anyone else), but Schumacher made mistakes that weekend and it's all Alonso needed. Plus, Alonso defended his second place really well. I'm just saying that Ferrari could have used team orders, but they didn't. Massa was very grateful to Schumacher for a certain reason mate.

Also, you must remember a very different Germany GP. Fischo was 5th and Alonso 7th so not sure what TOs are you refering to

You're talking about qualifying. The race was different. At the time, there used to be a European GP at Nurburgring and a German GP at Hockenheim. Alonso finished ahead of Fisichella in both races. If I remember right, the team orders were at Hockenheim. At Nurburgring, Ross Brawn and MS won a masterfully strategic race. So yeah, must be Hockenheim.

3- You must refer to a brake test Alonso did in FP after Doornbos obstructed Alonso when neither of them was doing a fast lap. Childish, agree, but not what you´re suggesting

So you're suggesting that if someone obstructs a fast lap in practice by mistake, the response from a WDC should be brake testing? Childish, yes! Dangerous? As much as running into a title rival in the final race. Just because circumstances are different doesn't mean either is right. And in 1997, Michael was 28, young too. I don't think being young is an excuse. Dangerous is dangerous.

4- You should provide a quote about Alonso accusing his team of sabotage, because I´ve heard that comment many times but never read a proper source. Sure it´s not media BS?

Here you go.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/others ... lonso.html

I'm not going to make something up to support my argument mate. Trust me on that.

This came after the Chinese GP, where Alonso stuck it on pole in the wet, led half the race and had a 25 second lead. However, he made a poor choice of tyres as I think he changed only the rears/fronts (can't remember, been long). Also, I distinctly remember the tyres were completely drivers calls in that race. The need of the hour was a slick tyre, but we ran grooved tyres back then. Alonso put on fresh rubber while the others didn't and he ended up losing the grand prix. The team had nothing to do with his loss. They did everything to help him win.

And about crashgate you can´t be serious. Alonso was benefitted from that, but it doesn´t mean he was implyed. It was Briatore´s fault, Alonso didn´t even need to know, so he probably didn´t know. As FIA investigation dictated. If you have more info please share.

I'm not going to say anything about this episode. I don't want this to become a 15 page meaningless lengthy debate between us. I'll take your point that he probably didn't know. Let's end this particular debate here. Just still want to reiterate on an earlier point that you can't laud his team spirit in an environment where a crash was planned.

I agree with you in your final statement, please do not mix facts and opinions, most of your argumentation was incorrect at least. Alonso did some things he shouldn´t have done when he was young, but that was a long time ago. Since then he´s been a perfect team player. Ask Ferrari, or better, look at Ferrari people reaction when Alonso pass next to them. It speaks itself. Or McLaren people, if he would have been that egocentric person some people suggest, they would have never signed him again. Instead of that, the team principal apologized in public to sign him again. What else do you need to conclude who was main fault in 2007?

Actually, I haven't stated anything other than fact. I conceded one point about a dodgy subject but the rest is pretty much what the world has seen or read.

Personally, I've mentioned earlier as well that I'm not one of the fans that believes no one liked Fernando at Ferrari. But, like you I also don't believe that everyone really liked him. I think it's safe to say that while they didn't part on bad terms it wasn't all hunky dory. As for McLaren? I think, the project excited him and McLaren and Honda desperately needed a champion driver. It was more of a means to an end for both parties. They needed one another. Also, I've never stated that Alonso was to blame for 2007. Was he to blame partly? Absolutely yes, just like Ron Dennis and Lewis Hamilton were.

To conclude, I just wanted to point out to you that as great a champion Fernando is, he hasn't really been a team player. All drivers have their weaknesses and it isn't my intention in the least to make him out to be second best to someone.

[f1316]

2) Alonso benefited from team orders that year with Fisichella (Germany, China) while Schumacher didn't. Ferrari could have easily boxed him at Turkey in Istanbul but they gave Massa preference, thereby giving Massa his first win and allowing Schumacher to finish behind Alonso. Massa was faster that weekend and deserved the win but Ferrari's all hailed No.1 & No.2 policy was happening more at Renault, than Ferrari. These are fine details, that escape the casual fan.
.

Sorry to jump on something somewhat incidental, but massa was not faster in Turkey. Schumacher was light years ahead of the whole field , just watch Q2. Massa was on a much lighter fuel load, something obscured by the safety car but Ferrari later made clear, and it's the same thing that happened in Japan same year (on which occasion you saw how much later Schumacher pitted). In those days you had to watch q2 to see true pace and schumi was a league apart from Massa (but admittedly made an unnecessary mistake in q3).

[f1316]

I remember Marchionne described it as "something special" so you imagine it's a decent step, even if, for all we know Mercedes step is bigger.

My friend, aren't you going to assume, "Let's say for SOME REASON, Mercedes doesn't improve".

Never entirely sure what points you're trying to make, but if you're referring to Canada then I think it was fair to assume that Ferrari's 3 token upgrade would be bigger than Mercedes' reliability only upgrade. Perhaps that was naive.

As it turns out, I think Mercedes got a lot more out of theirs.

I think my comment above was very even-handed: I said Mercedes upgrade might well be bigger; all I know is that Marchionne promised something special for monza and that's encouraging from a Ferrari perspective.

[Andres125sx]

Fair enough Schutelberg, some points you clarified are true.

Let´s agree to disagree about the rest to stop this OT here, as I said I agree when he was young he was too emotional and did some childish things, but that was a long time ago. Now he´s a lot more mature and a fair team player.... probably because he´s always faster than his team mates but a team player anycase