Barge Board looks slightly smaller.
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Yes! Smaller bargeboard. Perhaps because new t-tray... Check my edit photo.mclaren111 wrote:Good angle of this picture:
Barge Board looks slightly smaller.
http://media.cdn.mclaren.com/images/gal ... GP-021.jpg
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Now add smaller front and rear wing angle Mclaren runs asopposed to Mercedes,and you keep mention the 860hp Merc produce in Quali,when there are various sources sayingg they have up to 920 on Saturdays.j.yank wrote:OK, taking into account all criticism on the calculator approach, let see what we will have if put that MH have 80 hp or 120 hp down from Mercedes. The Rosberg speed trap of 317.4 km/h can be emulated pretty close with SL of 790 m, CES of 150 km/h (latest readings on FIA site), CFA = 1.312, CDA = 1.02, DTL = 7%, and power of 860 hp. Let assume that MH has all of these settings except that the power is 80 hp down - 780 hp. In this case the calculated speed trap is coming at 307.33 km/h which is only 2.3 km/h off from the actual speed trap of Alonso (309.6 km/h) and almost the same like Button speed trap which is 307.6 km/h. Now, let see what will happen if we put 740 (120 down) hp instead of 780. The calculated speed trap in this case is 302.02 km/h. To match the real speed traps we have to lower the CDA to 0.93 OR to make the CFA 1.2 OR to put DTL to 1%. 1% DTL is clearly impossible, 1.2 CFA can not be achieved with these FIA rules, 0.93 CDA is so low for this circuit that MH will loss all chances against other teams even in the low speed corners. So, the best guess is that 80 hp difference betwenn MH and Mercedes is much more realistic than 120 not to speak about 130 or 160 hp.
Yes, you are perfectly right but because we don't have any internal information what we can do is to accept the whole PU as a black box, and to guess such general and vague parameter like HP difference.Smokes wrote:You can't just say it horse power it is lacking you have to look a the torque curve of both engines combined with the PU kers and the turbo recovery unit. I suspect the torque curve of the Honda unit is very peaky towards the top end compared to the Mercedes PU and the electric motor can't fill the the lack of torque on the bottom end of the unit which why the maccas are losing speed on the Exits.
Haven't seen any of those "various sources". Link?ajnšpric_pumpa wrote:you keep mention the 860hp Merc produce in Quali,when there are various sources sayingg they have up to 920 on Saturdays.
I'm sorry, but 920bhp? We can safely say that is grossly excagerated. 860bhp I can believe. Barely.ajnšpric_pumpa wrote:Now add smaller front and rear wing angle Mclaren runs asopposed to Mercedes,and you keep mention the 860hp Merc produce in Quali,when there are various sources sayingg they have up to 920 on Saturdays.j.yank wrote:OK, taking into account all criticism on the calculator approach, let see what we will have if put that MH have 80 hp or 120 hp down from Mercedes. The Rosberg speed trap of 317.4 km/h can be emulated pretty close with SL of 790 m, CES of 150 km/h (latest readings on FIA site), CFA = 1.312, CDA = 1.02, DTL = 7%, and power of 860 hp. Let assume that MH has all of these settings except that the power is 80 hp down - 780 hp. In this case the calculated speed trap is coming at 307.33 km/h which is only 2.3 km/h off from the actual speed trap of Alonso (309.6 km/h) and almost the same like Button speed trap which is 307.6 km/h. Now, let see what will happen if we put 740 (120 down) hp instead of 780. The calculated speed trap in this case is 302.02 km/h. To match the real speed traps we have to lower the CDA to 0.93 OR to make the CFA 1.2 OR to put DTL to 1%. 1% DTL is clearly impossible, 1.2 CFA can not be achieved with these FIA rules, 0.93 CDA is so low for this circuit that MH will loss all chances against other teams even in the low speed corners. So, the best guess is that 80 hp difference betwenn MH and Mercedes is much more realistic than 120 not to speak about 130 or 160 hp.
To get 920 hp and in the same to reproduce the observed speed trap of 317.4 you need to put CDA above 1.1 but this would be the most extreme downforce on any circuit and this should count the 15% reduction due to DRS on the speed trap straight. If Mercedes ran with such power and such huge downforce I guess they will be lapping Ferrari. Also, this will mean huge ICE efficiency that at this stage seems impossible. The reality can't match these 920 hpajnšpric_pumpa wrote:Now add smaller front and rear wing angle Mclaren runs asopposed to Mercedes,and you keep mention the 860hp Merc produce in Quali,when there are various sources sayingg they have up to 920 on Saturdays.j.yank wrote:OK, taking into account all criticism on the calculator approach, let see what we will have if put that MH have 80 hp or 120 hp down from Mercedes. The Rosberg speed trap of 317.4 km/h can be emulated pretty close with SL of 790 m, CES of 150 km/h (latest readings on FIA site), CFA = 1.312, CDA = 1.02, DTL = 7%, and power of 860 hp. Let assume that MH has all of these settings except that the power is 80 hp down - 780 hp. In this case the calculated speed trap is coming at 307.33 km/h which is only 2.3 km/h off from the actual speed trap of Alonso (309.6 km/h) and almost the same like Button speed trap which is 307.6 km/h. Now, let see what will happen if we put 740 (120 down) hp instead of 780. The calculated speed trap in this case is 302.02 km/h. To match the real speed traps we have to lower the CDA to 0.93 OR to make the CFA 1.2 OR to put DTL to 1%. 1% DTL is clearly impossible, 1.2 CFA can not be achieved with these FIA rules, 0.93 CDA is so low for this circuit that MH will loss all chances against other teams even in the low speed corners. So, the best guess is that 80 hp difference betwenn MH and Mercedes is much more realistic than 120 not to speak about 130 or 160 hp.
trinidefender wrote:J.yank please provide your sources for CD values, corner exit speeds and such and then you can talk about how using that calculator is in any way more scientific.
Secondly your calculations don't factor in many things. Let's go over these points:
1.(a) Each track, each car and each driver will have its own optimum setup when it comes to trading downforce and drag. The relationship between losing downforce and drag reduction is not linear so not that easy to work out. To add to that, each driver will have their own style of racing lines and speeds into and out of a corner which will change what each cars optimum L/D ratio is for that track.
1.(b) Evidenced but the fact that the front wing is regularly not shown to be at its maximum AoA and that no monkey seat is run (which has a large drag coefficient for its effect)(and a monkey seat was tested twice this season), I deduce that Mclaren does not run at their maximum downforce setting. Even for Hungary. This means that McLaren is shedding drag to improve straight line speed so that it is not ridiculously easy for cars to overtake there. This shedding of drag also loses downforce and hence reduces corner speed. As the straight line speed as not as low as it should be (were they running maximum downforce) it makes the power deficit seem smaller than it actually is.
2. Your equation does not factor in drivability which is shown to have a huge effect with these high torque engines. There was an interview with a driver some time back (I think last season) who said that a big difference was that with the V8's coming out of a corner they could be on full throttle early at a high gear. The smooth torque rise as the revs climbed helped prevent wheel spin coming out of a corner and made the cars easy to drive. Combine that with diffuser blowing/sealing and you had cars with high levels of corner exit grip. This generation of cars, as was said by driver, are much more aggressive in their power delivery meaning that drivability is all the more important. It was noted earlier on this season that the drivability of the Honda is shown to be somewhat lacking compared to other PU's. Supposedly it has improved somewhat but from what I can see they still have a somewhat ON/OFF nature to their throttle. This can hurt lap times a fair amount.
3. Should honda be able to improve their power over the course of the season which I don't doubt they will then end of straight speeds should be higher and the temperature in the tyres should be higher leading to better grip. I only included this point because it was said before that Mclaren was having problems with the tyres not coming up to temperature. I have not heard reports of this recently so maybe they have sorted out this problem.
4. Last and definetly not least. Your calculation only factors in the time lost on that one straight. The lower power produced by the Honda means that the car is losing time ALL THE TIME that they are full throttle vs other cars at full throttle. There may be only 1 long straight but that isn't the only time when the cars are full throttle. If you factor that in with the reduced drivability (if that is still a problem) then it means drivers are on the throttle later. This too will cause a fair increase in lap time.
Valiant effort but the cars are too different. Even with GPS data the engine manufacturers don't know the power of their rivals. I think we just have to go off relative performance at power tracks to make a good guess on this. My gut tells me the 120 horsepower is accurate as well. The reason why honda is closer than expected is because this is only 120 peak horspower. The engines don't spend a long time at peak horsepower because of the layout of the tracks and fuel restrictions. Like Ferrari in 2014, the honda engine also cannot do two laps in a row at full KERS drive. The charging systems are not that good yet.j.yank wrote:OK, taking into account all criticism on the calculator approach, let see what we will have if put that MH have 80 hp or 120 hp down from Mercedes. The Rosberg speed trap of 317.4 km/h can be emulated pretty close with SL of 790 m, CES of 150 km/h (latest readings on FIA site), CFA = 1.312, CDA = 1.02, DTL = 7%, and power of 860 hp. Let assume that MH has all of these settings except that the power is 80 hp down - 780 hp. In this case the calculated speed trap is coming at 307.33 km/h which is only 2.3 km/h off from the actual speed trap of Alonso (309.6 km/h) and almost the same like Button speed trap which is 307.6 km/h. Now, let see what will happen if we put 740 (120 down) hp instead of 780. The calculated speed trap in this case is 302.02 km/h. To match the real speed traps we have to lower the CDA to 0.93 OR to make the CFA 1.2 OR to put DTL to 1%. 1% DTL is clearly impossible, 1.2 CFA can not be achieved with these FIA rules, 0.93 CDA is so low for this circuit that MH will loss all chances against other teams even in the low speed corners. So, the best guess is that 80 hp difference betwenn MH and Mercedes is much more realistic than 120 not to speak about 130 or 160 hp.
Nice. I also not this quote on that site:j.yank wrote: My estimation is only for the straight. I do this with this calculator: http://www.baranidesign.com/acceleratio ... ation.html
Could you share with us an estimate of the error propagation on the numbers used? I.e. how far of will the result be depending on the errors of the numbers you put in?Remember: --- IN = --- OUT
If I recall well Button statement was done after qualy, he mentioned that the problem he had on the car would have gave him the 0.3 seconds to qualify for Q2 because it is what the problem deficit on time was just on Hungarian straight, as Turbo1 says, I think there is a general confusion about all lap, hp, etc...turbof1 wrote:Sorry but that is either very subjective reading from you or deliberate trying to warp it in your advantage. He starts the sentence with "on the hungaroring straight". Please tell me how the straight is the whole lap. His statement should and can only be interpreted as "on the straight alone, they loose 0.3s a lap", which means he does not make any statement about the rest of the lap.Honestly before you want to accuse me of something then get your facts straight, he did claim 0.3 seconds for the whole lap. Right here, "On the Hungaroring straight a 160 hp difference (and everything else being equal) makes 0.6 sec loss per lap. However, on my estimates Maclaren are only about 80 hp behind Mercedes." He then goes on to admit that his calculation is only for one straight but still wants to only claim 80hp deficit to Mercedes (for the whole lap). That is just conflicting yourself.
I got my facts atleast straight. Try to read the statement straight, then we'll argue. I also feel this has to be done in the topic itself because a correction needed to be done. With success I might add, since the guy gave a detailed explanation on what he meant, on where he got his data and his point of view.
There is good synopsis on McLaren Honda teams thread.Thunder18 wrote:If this is in the wrong area, then please forgive me, but if anyone has the time and means to translate anything relevant/important, please can you add a synopsis?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndrdwPF ... pp=desktop