Formula 1 Losing Weight

[Vortex347]

By how much I am not able to tell. By quite some relative to the weight it has now. I made some very careful aproximations in my previous posts about the weight they have now, so look for them.

Well...you haven't outlined any clear values really....And you haven't exactly stipulated what you're changing (you said something about removing ERS...that's it as far as I can see)

"Well" under the minimum weight? The term quite open for interpretation, but I do assume that if they were struggling to get to the minimum weight, there isn't much scope to shave off further weight in the category of even 50-75kg and replace that with ballast.

Don't really understand that statement^

I think Adrian Newey pointed this out already in pre-season testing 2014. Instead of spending money on advanced ERS systems, F1 could have spend the same money on reducing weight and increasing power and efficiency of normal engines.

Basically what they could have done was to build a light and powerful V10 engine and reduce car weight substantially. Instead they went for heavy, expensive and advanced units.

So i'd presume your reduction would be lighter than those cars?

[turbof1]

Well...you haven't outlined any clear values really....And you haven't exactly stipulated what you're changing (you said something about removing ERS...that's it as far as I can see)

Because nobody can. I have outlined a very conservative maximum weight and what can be done about it:

Roughly yes. The front crash structure with front wing is more then light enough to be lifted and fitted by one person. I think it would be in the order of 30kg, but then you still have to subtract the front wing itself. In all honesty I don't think you'll get to 70kg with all the crash structures combined, and then I'm being careful.

You can do 2 things: either lower the front bulkhead of the monocoque allow higher noses or preferable a mix of both. It'll mean less material and weight needs to be added to meet the deacceleration demands during the crash test.

I've putted quite some effort into it, and you are still being pushy on the subject. I also made suggestions on saving weight by removing the ERS yes; the rulebook stipulates some of the parts having a minimum weight. Try and look there.

If you want the numbers, try and contact your local F1 team. See how that turns out.

[Vortex347]

I've putted quite some effort into it

Indeed you have...you've been the most active poster on this thread (second to me I guess) and for that I thank you.

If you want the numbers, try and contact your local F1 team. See how that turns out.

Haha lol I like that one....although that isn't really necessary

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=476

I am new to this forum - so Hi to everyone.

100kg ballast looks to me an achievable amount - according to an article I have seen quite a while ago in Autosprint the sum of all components of a modern F1 car is in the range of 370 to 390 kg.
Scrolling on different F1 web sides I could find some more details, but my component list (weight) isn’t perfect - so I am looking for some hints to improve it

Suspension 48 (front) – 57 (rear) kg
(uprights 900g; brake calliper 1450g ; discs 850g; pads 250g;ducts ??; wheels 3.4 / 3.7kg; wishbones and pushrods ??;drive shafts 2kg; ….)
Chassis 65 kg
(Monocoque 31,4kg; steering wheel 1,3kg; mirror 160g; drivers seat; electronics; fuel cell /pump ….)
Gearbox 40kg
(Main case 9kg; rear impact 4kg; rear light 250gr; clutch 850gr; …)
Engine: 95kg
Radiators: 10kg (Fluids: water / oil)
Wings: 4,3 (front) – 6,5 (rear) kg, nosecone 5,5 kg

This seems pretty legitimate. Getting the numbers isn't really that difficult.....It's knowing about them that's the hard part.

This is from a 2004 post on this website (adds up to about 381kg), then you add 30kg for KERS, 50kg for power unit, crash structure upgrades (as you said) 55-65kg.....

[riff_raff]

What is the point of reducing the minimum weight of F1 cars? If you want to improve the racing, while also reducing cost and improving safety, then make the cars longer/wider/heavier, make the tires larger/wider, and make the engines larger displacement and NA.

It costs huge amounts of money to design and build a super-light composite chassis. It also costs huge money to design and build the hybrid power units currently being used.

[Moxie]

What is the point of reducing the minimum weight of F1 cars? If you want to improve the racing, while also reducing cost and improving safety, then make the cars longer/wider/heavier, make the tires larger/wider, and make the engines larger displacement and NA.

It costs huge amounts of money to design and build a super-light composite chassis. It also costs huge money to design and build the hybrid power units currently being used.

The point is the development of technological innovation. You will find a great deal of disagreement among members of F1Technical in regard to what they want or expect from the sport of F1. However, I think it is fair to say that most of us here are dissatisfied with the lack of freedom afforded to the engineers to design great race cars. Instead they spend more than the budgets than some small nations to build a car within extremely strict specifications, just so that they can fiddle,with a couple of winglets or the shape of heat extraction vent. Some of this conversation may be daydreaming, some of the ideas may be hair brained, but you can't fault the group for asking "What if...?"

[Vortex347]

What is the point of reducing the minimum weight of F1 cars?

What is the point of making the cars heavier? It goes both ways.

It costs huge amounts of money to design and build a super-light composite chassis.

Well to be picky, the chassis is a very minor cost of an actual f1 car. These new power units cost like 14 million I was hearing for mercedes engines. Entire body of the car isn't even 1 million...

http://www.tsmplug.com/f1/average-cost- ... ula-1-car/

If you want to improve the racing

This is a very broad term and depends on your definition of improving the racing.
For me (and I know I'm not the only one), I'd like and expect the cars to be going faster every year. A decade ago, it used to be "I wonder who it will be that'll get a track record this time". Now it's "I wonder how much slower they're gonna be...ooh 5 seconds maybe 6 if they don't use their ERS effectively". Slower racing is kind of boring too....

On top of that, the new engines sound terrible imo.... can't beat the squeal of the NA v8's or v10's

It also costs huge money to design and build the hybrid power units currently being used.

Indeed this is what will kill the sport...not a composite chassis...

and make the engines larger displacement and NA.

Anything's possible....they could revert back to this pretty easily, remove the ERS and KERS and what not and they'd save plenty of money (which could be better spent on other things ). Especially when the teams aren't liking it.... I've seen articles on Ferrari and Red Bull being very dissatisfied with the new PU's. Think red bull threatened to leave (don't know what went on with ferrari)...

Links here:

http://www.foxsports.com.au/motor-sport ... 7389133031

And I reckon the ferrari Chairman summed up my thoughts and the thoughts of others pretty well:

"Formula One isn't working," he said. "It's declining because [the Federation International d'Automobile, the sport's governing body] have forgotten that people watch the racing for the excitement. Nobody watches racing for the efficiency, come on."

sourced from: http://www.wsj.com/articles/ferrari-cou ... 1402679223

[Tim.Wright]

What is the point of reducing the minimum weight of F1 cars?

What is the point of making the cars heavier? It goes both ways.

Heavier cars are much cheaper to make. Not just a little bit a a massive amount. Plus with such a high minimum weight it effectively forces all the teams to use the commercial gimmicks like ERS.

Weight reduction, like any performance parameter, has an "exponential" cost vs benefit relationship. You might be able to save 10kg on the car for 10k€ but the next 10kg will likely cost you 100k€.

And this isn't material costs - it's the design and development process that has to increase massively to get these gains.

This is why the car's are heavy.

[Tommy Cookers]

btw
in 1984 Tyrell was apparently running cars 64 or 72 kg under the required nominal 540 kg (depending on interpretation) ....
via a 13 litre tank engine-injection water tank found to include 64 kg of lead shot (apparently from a top-up near the race end)
ruled illegal as the lead was indisputably unfixed ballast if present throughout the race
for 1987 the (by then 3.5 litre) N/A car weight limit was reduced to 500 kg

by 2000 the weight limit was 600 kg including driver
the Ferrari weighed 463 kg, so Schumacher's car carried 62 kg of ballast

[Vortex347]

Check out this simple front wing



I reckon that'd be light weight

http://andriesvanoverbeeke.com/399419/6 ... -1-concept
is the website this guy has some awesome images

[riff_raff]

I don't think it's the technology that appeals to most F1 fans. Instead I think it's the competition between teams and drivers from different nations that gets fans excited. Italians cheer for Ferrari, Brits cheer for McLaren, and Germans cheer for Mercedes. Spaniards cheer for Alonzo, Brits cheer for Hamilton, and Finns cheer for Räikkönen.

I've never seen anyone cheer for a KERS supplier, or a digital acquisition software supplier.

[adriannewey9864]

should make driver+car 550kgs, but make ballast illegal, the human race keeps getting taller and heavier

[godlameroso]

I wouldn't be surprised if the teams are already underweight save for Manor. Losing 50kg with current technology would probably make cars faster than 2012.

[Vortex347]

Hi guys, thanks for your replies.

This is why the car's are heavy.

That defeats the purpose of a race car with the idea being to go fast. Weight does not equal speed (no exceptions).

Weight reduction, like any performance parameter, has an "exponential" cost vs benefit relationship. You might be able to save 10kg on the car for 10k€ but the next 10kg will likely cost you 100k€.

Well the turbo engines they're currently running cost 14 million apparently (maybe even more for merc) so they could definitely have a lot of spending money if they resorted to the 6 million dollar 2.4l v8's (about 8 million left over from the engine). Regardless, for what it is, the chassis is extremely cheap compared to the engine and other components on the cars. So it certainly is an area that could under go significant changes.

by 2000 the weight limit was 600 kg including driver
the Ferrari weighed 463 kg, so Schumacher's car carried 62 kg of ballast

Hmm i thought the cars were sub 400kg weight back then. Regardless, yeah 62kg of ballast does seem feasible. It is probably a bit low though (i thought they had around 90kg on them cars).

should make driver+car 550kgs, but make ballast illegal

Yeah this is certainly possible I suppose. Though you would have to make sure this (removing the ballast) doesn't have any negative effects on the car when it is on the track.

[mrluke]

You can't ban ballast.

The teams will build parts at the bottom of the car either thicker or of a heavier material, how would you police that? Are you going to measure the bottom of each safety cell and declare it too thick and made of too dense a weave?

You want ballast, it levels out the differences between driver weights.

[riff_raff]

Ballast is permitted, but it must be fixed in place. There is also a rule regarding F/R weight distribution. On one hand, adding ballast is nice because it can be located where it is most effective. But on the other hand, simple ballast weight usually does not provide any other function than weight distribution adjustment.