2015 Hungarian Grand Prix - 24-26 July

[iotar__]

Or Rosberg's if he wins the start or gets the right tyres for the last stint.

I am a bit disappointed with the way we planned the pitstops,” Sainz said. “I had a good start, but got stuck behind a Williams.
“When I tried to overtake him I asked to go for the undercut, but they didn’t give it to me.
“I don’t know why, but they gave it to Max who was behind me.
“McLaren did the same with Fernando [Alonso], even though I was also in front of him.
“Then for the last stint I was right behind Fernando when he pitted for the option [tyre] for the last part of the race, but I didn’t, while knowing the option is so much quicker."

Self explanatory and so beautiful. This is your Red Bull's F1 and Marko's "Verstappen's perfect race". Interesting part: no option tyre, in their defence it's bloody hard to prepare them.

[Sevach]

I think that Ferrari had this race in the bag. The Mercedes was ten seconds behind after the first pit-stops. At the end of the race this could have extended to 20 seconds. The Ferrari was the faster car on Sunday.

Only compared to Rosberg. When Hamilton was running in clear air, he was running substantially faster than Vettel.

It was Hamilton's race to lose - and lose it he did.

Hamillton overtook Ricciardo at lap 29 and he was 34.320 behind the leader.
In lap 41 Hamilton was 34.680 behind the leader.

Also worth reminding that Vettel had no reason to be pushing at that point of the race, SC car not occuring, he would've benefited more from extending his stint than going the absolute fastest he could for fewer laps.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

You know what Lauda seems to forget that his championship winning came in a Ferrari car. Mercs success has blown him away to think and talk like that. No modesty left in front of the camera on a interview. Wonder if he will change ship once Ferrari reach the peak and start taking a dig at Merc!! he is very opportunist person.

I'm glad someone shares my view. I've always got the impression that he feels he deserves a lot of credit for the Mercedes performance. I'm sure he deserves a bit of credit as well, but he seems a bit desperate for the attention.

I'm sure Ferrari aren't hiring him again. He's rubbed Arrivabene the wrong way and I read from both Vettel and Raikkonen somewhere that Lauda loves 'to talk.' Vettel/Raikkonen don't need his inputs.

Ferrari hadn't won a title for 11 years, until 1975 when they finally won it with Niki. So, the credit must go to Niki too for bringing them back in title contention. Yes, he talks non sense, but that doesn't make him a necessary idiot. In our world, everyone in the position of power feel they are responsible for the success the organization is enjoying, so he isn't any different either. Ferrari hiring? Niki roams around the world in his own private jet !!! Again, you need to be in such a strong position, financially and credibility wise, to make such harsh comments to Ferrari, which Niki is in. I don't think he would be too worried about not getting an opportunity to join Ferrari. As for Arrivabene, instead of Niki's comments, I guess he would be more worried about a McLaren or a Red Bull getting revived for next year and pushing them back to where they really belong.

I think that Ferrari had this race in the bag. The Mercedes was ten seconds behind after the first pit-stops. At the end of the race this could have extended to 20 seconds. The Ferrari was the faster car on Sunday.

After a hectic drive to office, this joke rekindled my mood. Thanks PZ.

[Phil]

Also worth reminding that Vettel had no reason to be pushing at that point of the race, SC car not occuring, he would've benefited more from extending his stint than going the absolute fastest he could for fewer laps.

He didn't? I beg to disagree. Both Ferraris were on a OOP strategy - Rosberg on OPO. Ferrari's optimal strategy was to ensure a large enough gap in the middle sector to not be vulnerable towards the end of the race when Mercedes would be running the soft tire to the end - on a light car and the superior substantially quicker tire, while both Ferrari's would be on the slower one. This however was compounded because the quicker of the Merc drivers was a looooong way behind (fighting traffic on a notoriously difficult track to overtake, being harder on the tires because of all that dirty air etc) and they were only folllowed by a 'struggling' Rosberg, who however slow he might have been, was on the 'slower' tire at that phase and was still going to exploit the better tire towards the end. Yes, the safety car messed that one up and we'll never know, but I don't believe for a second Ferrari was just coasting around in their middle stint. They were quick, perhaps managing to a degree (which they have to at all times with these tires, so it's a moot point), I absolutely agree, but they were not the quickest car on Sunday.

[Vasconia]

I think that Ferrari had this race in the bag. The Mercedes was ten seconds behind after the first pit-stops. At the end of the race this could have extended to 20 seconds. The Ferrari was the faster car on Sunday.

Only compared to Rosberg. When Hamilton was running in clear air, he was running substantially faster than Vettel.

It was Hamilton's race to lose - and lose it he did.

Absolutely, Hamilton was the fatest guy on the track, thankfully the Mercedes guys did a bad start which prevented them to achieve another 1-2. Though with Nico´s bad pace perhaps Vettel could have attacked him.

[Vasconia]

Or Rosberg's if he wins the start or gets the right tyres for the last stint.

I am a bit disappointed with the way we planned the pitstops,” Sainz said. “I had a good start, but got stuck behind a Williams.
“When I tried to overtake him I asked to go for the undercut, but they didn’t give it to me.
“I don’t know why, but they gave it to Max who was behind me.
“McLaren did the same with Fernando [Alonso], even though I was also in front of him.
“Then for the last stint I was right behind Fernando when he pitted for the option [tyre] for the last part of the race, but I didn’t, while knowing the option is so much quicker."

Self explanatory and so beautiful. This is your Red Bull's F1 and Marko's "Verstappen's perfect race". Interesting part: no option tyre, in their defence it's bloody hard to prepare them.

Sainz should be careful with what he says, with those words he is not going to receive more support from the team and probably he will be in trouble. We all know how Marco behaves when someone doestn follow the script.

Anwyay, I agree with him, the strategy was pure sh*t and they favoured his teammate.

[Schuttelberg]

Also worth reminding that Vettel had no reason to be pushing at that point of the race, SC car not occuring, he would've benefited more from extending his stint than going the absolute fastest he could for fewer laps.

He didn't? I beg to disagree. Both Ferraris were on a OOP strategy - Rosberg on OPO. Ferrari's optimal strategy was to ensure a large enough gap in the middle sector to not be vulnerable towards the end of the race when Mercedes would be running the soft tire to the end - on a light car and the superior substantially quicker tire, while both Ferrari's would be on the slower one. This however was compounded because the quicker of the Merc drivers was a looooong way behind (fighting traffic on a notoriously difficult track to overtake, being harder on the tires because of all that dirty air etc) and they were only folllowed by a 'struggling' Rosberg, who however slow he might have been, was on the 'slower' tire at that phase and was still going to exploit the better tire towards the end. Yes, the safety car messed that one up and we'll never know, but I don't believe for a second Ferrari was just coasting around in their middle stint. They were quick, perhaps managing to a degree (which they have to at all times with these tires, so it's a moot point), I absolutely agree, but they were not the quickest car on Sunday.

Spot on! And even though Rosberg wanted primes for the third stint, the pit wall gave him a negative on that because of their policy of 'ditto' strategy on both cars. But, the SC timing meant that Mercedes only had the primes in the tyre blankets.

[Schuttelberg]

I think that Ferrari had this race in the bag. The Mercedes was ten seconds behind after the first pit-stops. At the end of the race this could have extended to 20 seconds. The Ferrari was the faster car on Sunday.

Only compared to Rosberg. When Hamilton was running in clear air, he was running substantially faster than Vettel.

It was Hamilton's race to lose - and lose it he did.

Absolutely, Hamilton was the fatest guy on the track, thankfully the Mercedes guys did a bad start which prevented them to achieve another 1-2. Though with Nico´s bad pace perhaps Vettel could have attacked him.

Yeah! But it's so difficult mate. You can have all the pace in the world, but passing those Mercs is tough, even tougher at Hungary. I personally feel, you're only going to pass them when they struggle with tyre temps or a mechanical issue (like Kimi's). It's quite simple at the moment with the Mercs- Quali, Start, Under-cut. No one's out qualifying them. It's basically the start, or the under cut. But it's hard.

[FrukostScones]

AMUS on penalties:

Hungarian GP - investigations and penalties:

-Felipe Massa will be on the grid in the wrong box - about 3 feet in front of the line. The start is aborted. Allegedly Massa has not seen the digital readouts. He must wait at the first pit stop 5 seconds.

-Lotus sends Romain Grosjean after the first pit stop in the lane of Felipe Massa. Verdict: Unsafe release. Grosjean lost for the failure of the team with 5 seconds.

-Pastor Maldonado Sergio Perez turns to output the first corner. This is a drive-through penalty for the Venezuelans. The Stewards give Maldonado alone to blame. By contrast, the race control was of the opinion that Perez more space could have left. But that does not count. The referees/stewards are the commissioners.

-Pastor Maldonado is flashed 91.6 km / h in the pit lane. That is 11.6 km / h fast. Again a drive-through penalty for the Lotus drivers.

-Kimi Raikkonen is also too fast in the pit lane. 82.4 km / h above occurs just barely the limit of 80 km / h. That's why he gets only aufgebrummt a 5-second penalty.

-Nico Rosberg and Daniel Ricciardo touch at the exit of the first corner. When Ricciardo breaks the front wing. At the Mercedes of Rosberg burst the left rear tire. The investigation is directed against both. The referees send two protocols with the same sentence: Just a normal racing incident. It was not absolutely necessary that Rosberg immediately swings back to the racing line when he parried Ricciardo attack.

-Max Verstappen keeps the safety car delta time is not one. This is a drive-through penalty.

-Lewis Hamilton and Daniel Ricciardo collide the re-start after the safety car phase at the first corner. Hamilton urges the Red Bull next to the runway. The championship leader has a time penalty, by the box.

-Daniil Kvyat overtaken Lewis Hamilton at turn 4 next to the slopes. It does not matter that Hamilton left the track with all four wheels. Kvyat procured through the maneuver a space saving and thus an advantage(he also left with four wheels and passed through that adavantage). That cost him the end of the race 10 seconds.

-Max Verstappen crashes at Turn 4 with Valtteri Bottas. Bottas moves to a puncture. Again, choose the Stewards with Emanuele Pirro as a driver representative on normal racing incident. In the fray just after the re-start enemy contacts could not be avoided.

-Pastor Maldonado overtaken in the safety car phase Will Stevens. He gets 10 seconds his race time added.

[AnthonyG]

Wasn't there a pitlane speed row here a few years ago allready?

[Sevach]

Also worth reminding that Vettel had no reason to be pushing at that point of the race, SC car not occuring, he would've benefited more from extending his stint than going the absolute fastest he could for fewer laps.

He didn't? I beg to disagree. Both Ferraris were on a OOP strategy - Rosberg on OPO. Ferrari's optimal strategy was to ensure a large enough gap in the middle sector to not be vulnerable towards the end of the race when Mercedes would be running the soft tire to the end - on a light car and the superior substantially quicker tire, while both Ferrari's would be on the slower one. This however was compounded because the quicker of the Merc drivers was a looooong way behind (fighting traffic on a notoriously difficult track to overtake, being harder on the tires because of all that dirty air etc) and they were only folllowed by a 'struggling' Rosberg, who however slow he might have been, was on the 'slower' tire at that phase and was still going to exploit the better tire towards the end. Yes, the safety car messed that one up and we'll never know, but I don't believe for a second Ferrari was just coasting around in their middle stint. They were quick, perhaps managing to a degree (which they have to at all times with these tires, so it's a moot point), I absolutely agree, but they were not the quickest car on Sunday.

We'll never know what? The race was completely over and sealed.

Contrary to popular belief Hamilton wasn't closing the gap to Vettel, if you looked at the lap times you would now that, he put a couple of fast laps and then dropped a bit to a similar pace to Sebastian(and he also was on OOP).

Rosberg was 27s behind on lap 41(you know enough to stop and still be infront) and Vettel still had plenty of life in his soft routinely increasing the gap to Rosberg, at the point where Nico finally get his softs(not that he wanted them, his only concern was to cover Hamilton) he would have more than a mountain to climb.

The funny thing is you know it...
You made a couple of posts defending Rosberg's choice of prime tires when he could've had options, and your justification for it was "he was a long way behind Raikkonen anyway".

[Phil]

Sevach,

What exactly are you arguing here? I fully concede Rosberg wasn't the quickest Mercedes outthere - that much is clear. I merely pointed out that your comparison of Vettel and Rosberg is a bit simplistic because they were on different strategies, dictated by the difference in performance of tires. When Rosberg pitted for his mediums, he was less than 10 seconds behind Vettel. From then on, he lost another 17 seconds to Vettel, not only by lack of performance, but crucially because he was also on the slower tire. Assuming no safety-car, when Vettel would have pitted for his mediums, he'd be first racing against Rosberg on worne mediums (perhaps extending his gap a bit further), but then towards the end, he'd be racing a much quicker Rosberg on softs (and in a light car, which we know is much quicker as highlighted in qualifying). Would he have caught the Ferraris? Not sure. Rosberg IMO was not only uncomfortable with the car, he was also napping (or checking his side-mirrors looking for Hamilton). But I'm not sure Ferrari took that as a sign to just coast.

We also know that Rosberg was slower than Hamilton. Despite overtaking and traffic, Hamilton was closing the gap to Rosberg when in clean air, even in the first stint when both were on identical tires. Then, the gap came down again when Hamilton was on softs, like Vettel, vs. Rosberg on primes.


Hamilton was at the very least matching Vettel on identical tires when in clear air - although his 'clear air' pace only came to light after he got past traffic and slower cars. To what extend he lost tire performance by following other cars and overtaking them is anyones guess.

I find it doubtful that Vettel would have been quicker than Hamilton during the race if they had been behind one another and one of them not held up in traffic.

EDIT: BTW Sevach, I'm going to add another tiny point: After the safety car restart when the top 3 (both Ferraris and Rosberg) were on mediums; Rosberg was seemingly quicker than both (Kimi had no ERS), but he was also on to put Vettel under pressure. This shows that the Ferrari wasn't comfortable on the medium tires, even against a less than comfortable Rosberg when on those tires. Now imagine if the safety car hadn't been, Rosberg wasn't sleeping and would have been on the soft tire at the end... Then, imagine what Hamilton could have done.

The funny thing is you know it...
You made a couple of posts defending Rosberg's choice of prime tires when he could've had options, and your justification for it was "he was a long way behind Raikkonen anyway".

Ehm. No. I think you'll have to find me that quote (or better; read it again). I did justify the prime tire choice (why the team pitted him for those when they did), but the bit about it being because he was a long way behind Raikkoennen is entirely made up (or misunderstood on your part).

[komninosm]

When Hamilton broke late and smoked his tires, Ricciardo crowded him and caused a collision. When Ricciardo broke late and smoked his tires Rosberg broke and let him pass and avoided the collion (imagine if Rosberg had not breaked massively but took his turn normally), only to be struck from behind by a Ricciardo going for a gap that wasn't there after the turn was over. Ricciardo deserved a penalty for one of these situations at least (Rosberg one). You guys can't have it both ways. And you know I hate Rosbeg (since Monaco), but Ricciardo is clearly in the wrong. You can see cars slot in ahead of other cars like this many times and the car clearly behind accepts this and breaks a little. Ric did not and he crashed on Ros. End of story. Do i need to make a montage of cars doing just that at the end of a turn? If you're 95% behind the car in front it's time to let him take his line and slot in behind him, not to clip his tire.

[Sevach]

Sevach,

What exactly are you arguing here? I fully concede Rosberg wasn't the quickest Mercedes outthere - that much is clear. I merely pointed out that your comparison of Vettel and Rosberg is a bit simplistic because they were on different strategies, dictated by the difference in performance of tires. When Rosberg pitted for his mediums, he was less than 10 seconds behind Vettel. From then on, he lost another 17 seconds to Vettel, not only by lack of performance, but crucially because he was also on the slower tire. Assuming no safety-car, when Vettel would have pitted for his mediums, he'd be first racing against Rosberg on worne mediums (perhaps extending his gap a bit further), but then towards the end, he'd be racing a much quicker Rosberg on softs (and in a light car, which we know is much quicker as highlighted in qualifying). Would he have caught the Ferraris? Not sure. Rosberg IMO was not only uncomfortable with the car, he was also napping (or checking his side-mirrors looking for Hamilton). But I'm not sure Ferrari took that as a sign to just coast.

We also know that Rosberg was slower than Hamilton. Despite overtaking and traffic, Hamilton was closing the gap to Rosberg when in clean air, even in the first stint when both were on identical tires. Then, the gap came down again when Hamilton was on softs, like Vettel, vs. Rosberg on primes.


Hamilton was at the very least matching Vettel on identical tires when in clear air - although his 'clear air' pace only came to light after he got past traffic and slower cars. To what extend he lost tire performance by following other cars and overtaking them is anyones guess.

I find it doubtful that Vettel would have been quicker than Hamilton during the race if they had been behind one another and one of them not held up in traffic.

EDIT: BTW Sevach, I'm going to add another tiny point: After the safety car restart when the top 3 (both Ferraris and Rosberg) were on mediums; Rosberg was seemingly quicker than both (Kimi had no ERS), but he was also on to put Vettel under pressure. This shows that the Ferrari wasn't comfortable on the medium tires, even against a less than comfortable Rosberg when on those tires. Now imagine if the safety car hadn't been, Rosberg wasn't sleeping and would have been on the soft tire at the end... Then, imagine what Hamilton could have done.

The funny thing is you know it...
You made a couple of posts defending Rosberg's choice of prime tires when he could've had options, and your justification for it was "he was a long way behind Raikkonen anyway".

Ehm. No. I think you'll have to find me that quote (or better; read it again). I did justify the prime tire choice (why the team pitted him for those when they did), but the bit about it being because he was a long way behind Raikkoennen is entirely made up (or misunderstood on your part).

" At this point, it wasnt clear that the actual safety car would come out and bunch the field up. At this point, Ros was 10 seconds ahead of Hamilton - the gap to Raikoennen massive."
That was your justification for why wasn't stupid for Rosberg to forgo soft tires and worry only about covering Hamilton...

Please tell me what i'm reading wrong, because i read you saying it made sense for Rosberg to forget the Ferrari's and worry about Hamilton exclusively.


Too much "imagination" for me when we can see the facts.
We know Vettel was faster than Rosberg the entire race, stint 1, obviously stint 2, and even stint 3.
Yes even stint 3, although much closer than on the previous stints, on tires that push the balance towards a Mercedes a bit, Rosberg couldn't stay in Vettel's DRS zone and was dropping back.

And the most important fact is that Hamilton, on the same tires, wasn't closing the gap to the leader, nor he would have options in the final stint making him closing the 34s lead unlikely to say the least.

See, facts.
Not imagination or fantasy.

[foxmulder_ms]

I've just seen the race... It was an interesting race but the guys I was rooting for got the short end of it.

The weirdest thing for me was, though, Nico's decision to get the prime tires for the last stint. that made zero sense to me. Everyone was dying to go on the softs as much as they could but he volunteered to have the harder compound. That had to be a mistake.