Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[ringo]

I insist it is less. But under what i believe the engine runs at at the variables i posted earlier.
But even from that video it operates in a very wide range. It's hardly ever at 3, going from 1 to 3 with no correlation to anything. We would need to see how they operate with max power strategy.
I am at 3 bars with my calculator with very high intake temps and high A:F like around 16 and engine speeds below 10,000rpm.
But as i say it's dependent on strategy. We have no indication of how Honda reasons how their engine runs in different situations.

[PlatinumZealot]

Stolen from a hard working poster on Autosport.

Here is your Gold. Gruntguru.

[PlatinumZealot]

Ultra small compressor! and MGUH!

Must be Mixed flow for real, seeing how small it is.

[gruntguru]

Ultra small compressor! and MGUH!
Must be Mixed flow for real, seeing how small it is.

It doesn't look that small to me. Ultra small diameter housing with the volute wrapped into the concave part of the wheel profile. The wheel itself is almost as big as the housing (diametrically). Contrast with the Mercedes compressor housing shown elsewhere with the entire diffuser and volute radially outwards from the wheel tip.

[pgfpro]

Looks like a decent size to me.

It looks like a mixed flow turbine wheel, like what BW uses on their EFR series turbos.

Compressor wheel looks like its a extended tip technology, also what BW uses.

[gruntguru]

I insist it is less. But under what i believe the engine runs at at the variables i posted earlier.
But even from that video it operates in a very wide range. It's hardly ever at 3, going from 1 to 3 with no correlation to anything. We would need to see how they operate with max power strategy.
I am at 3 bars with my calculator with very high intake temps and high A:F like around 16 and engine speeds below 10,000rpm.

What is the trapped mass percentage in your simulation? (ie How much air scavenges through during valve overlap?)

What allowance have you made for stratified charge? (ie What percentage of the trapped mass is not mixed with the fuel spray and therefore does not participate in the combustion process?)

[ringo]

I have no supporting data for that so i rather not assume. I would can use what is suggested by others as long as there is concurrent supporting evidence. But from that video i would say the intake temperatures are high, maybe 60 degrees C an stratiffied charge is being used. Whether is is momentarilly i cannot say. As the 3 bar seems to occur less than say 1.5 to 2.5. We dont know how these guys a running their unit. But if any of you here have solid evidence based on current direct injected sports car engines i can see how it works out. Im not so sure about examples of lean running for ecomy reasons being the average combustion condition for these power units. But from the video they honda unit seems to do some of that if even for a moment.

[FW17]

What is

Drive
PO - 7.5 bar
VO - 1.971

xxxxx - 81376 rpm
xboost - 2.29 bar
TExL - 681 degC
TExR - 458 degC

xxxxx - 52.5kg/hr
xxxxx - 54.5kg/hr

[Thunder]

Don't know about the Drive section but:

81376 rpm should be Turbo rpm
2.29 bar should be Charge Air Pressure
TExl should be Exhaust temperature of the left Cylinder Bank
TExr same on the right hand side

The other 2 could be Fuel usage.

[Facts Only]

Looking at the telemetry at 30:24 I see 3.71Bar Boost (Abs?) at 114,456rpm (turbine rpm), 991/1001degC EGT and 100kg/hr fuel flow. Then at 30:29 after a period of closed throttle 1.35Bar Boost (Abs?) at 56584rpm (turbine rpm), 753/758degC EGT and 0kg/hr. There are a few more examples later in the video.

That's gold. Higher boost and turbine rpm than any commentator (eg Benzing) has claimed so far. Certainly puts paid to those insisting boost must be less than 3 bar abs.

I've been saying that that 3+ Bar Boost is correct right from the start. As I know that it is.

Anyway, I suspect PO and VO are Pressure of Oil and Volume of Oil (litres in the tank) as these are absolutely critical data for dyno running.

The most interesting thing in that video is that they have 'blurred out' the turbine housing suggesting that it may be something a bit more trick than just a double inlet housing.

Perhaps the 'lump' on the top of the housing in the first picture is some sort of integrated wastegate housing or other type of pressure control system as I dont see a wastegate anywhere else in the exhaust system.

[FW17]

Why the difference in temperature of the exhaust from left to right?

Why exhaust temperature is increasing when the turbo is slowed down

(right side of the screen and left side of screen)

[R_Redding]

....

[Dipesh1995]

http://en.f1i.com/news/20345-honda-ran- ... ngary.html

Interesting read, looks like they are lacking power mostly from their ICE rather than their ERS since they were running that at 100% but still lacking a lot of straight line speed.

[piast9]

Why the difference in temperature of the exhaust from left to right?

I am no engine specialist but it's not strange to me. The engine, especially single turbo engine, is asymmetrical so the behaviour of banks may be different.

[dmjunqueira]

From team thread (I'm re-posting it on engine thread because I think this is very valuable info about engine problems and how they are trying to solve them):

A quick sum of the video,which i got from Autosport forum.

Given that the programme is written in close partnership with Honda I believe it would have been checked by them before broadcasting.

I found it quite interesting overall. I wish the other engine makers were a tenth as open.

They were very frank about the problems faced by Honda. Essentially the problem is with focal temperature control within the engine. In particular the MGUK temperature during operational use has been far higher than predicted so the performance of the motor degrades substantially. This is a problem that the other makers have not experienced because the MGUK in the Honda is close to the exhaust manifolds and therefore absorbs a lot of radiated heat from them. They showed several changes made over the season including redesigning the oil reservoir that attaches to the front of the engine to improve local airflow to the MGUK and changes made to the seal to prevent coolant leak from the motor. They mentioned that earlier versions of the PU were considerably larger and it took substantial work to reduce the size of the engine.

The programme focuses a lot on Honda culture (which should NOT be mistaken for Japanese culture) and interestingly Arai often imagines how Mr Honda would react if he walked in on the project today which involves a lot of shouting. It talks about how he insisted that his engineers never follow the routes taken by other companies, finding interesting new ways to do things, fail, learn how to overcome failure and then succeed and win. How failure is essential in order to learn how to win. He also describes how if they got senior engineers from other companies the Honda engineers would end up merely supporting them in executing solutions they had learned elsewhere rather than learning how to solve them themselves which rather misses the point of why they are involved in F1.

It also shows the passion of the engineers themselves and the emotions they feel at various points of the season, probably the most important being kuyashii which I can't translate into English but the closest approximate is the feeling after being defeated or failing, a mix of frustration, anger and feeling resolute not to let it happen again.