Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

[Schuttelberg]

2) Alonso benefited from team orders that year with Fisichella (Germany, China) while Schumacher didn't. Ferrari could have easily boxed him at Turkey in Istanbul but they gave Massa preference, thereby giving Massa his first win and allowing Schumacher to finish behind Alonso. Massa was faster that weekend and deserved the win but Ferrari's all hailed No.1 & No.2 policy was happening more at Renault, than Ferrari. These are fine details, that escape the casual fan.
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Sorry to jump on something somewhat incidental, but massa was not faster in Turkey. Schumacher was light years ahead of the whole field , just watch Q2. Massa was on a much lighter fuel load, something obscured by the safety car but Ferrari later made clear, and it's the same thing that happened in Japan same year (on which occasion you saw how much later Schumacher pitted). In those days you had to watch q2 to see true pace and schumi was a league apart from Massa (but admittedly made an unnecessary mistake in q3).

Sorry about the typing error mate. If you see the post above yours, I've actually said the exact same thing. I actually intended to say, 'Massa was slower all weekend, but deserved to win.'

I guess, in such a long post, I got myself confused.

@ Andreas- Cheers! I don't think I could convince you on the team player aspect. Could I?

[iotar__]

2) Alonso benefited from team orders that year with Fisichella (Germany, China) while Schumacher didn't. Ferrari could have easily boxed him at Turkey in Istanbul but they gave Massa preference, thereby giving Massa his first win and allowing Schumacher to finish behind Alonso. Massa was faster that weekend and deserved the win but Ferrari's all hailed No.1 & No.2 policy was happening more at Renault, than Ferrari. These are fine details, that escape the casual fan.
.

I don't want to get involved in this Alonso character assassination and Schumacher statue building but this kind of selectiveness bothers me. It's another "in the races when they didn't have problems" about Hamilton and Rosberg '14, picking only parts you like for some made up result.

Although it's not a detail that should escape a casual fan because it's the size of an elephant: don't you think that there were other aspects that can be easily described as FIA team orders in the form of mid-season mass damper ban and Monza impeding Massa penalty? I will leave for you to decide if they were more or less serious than team orders in Alonso's favour.

As for team orders in general you might suspect that they exist in all kind of less vis-able forms (for the less casual fans of course!) and I have a strong suspicion Schumacher was benefiting from them the whole season, starting with choosing a team-mate. This way you can avoid those open ones and apply holier than thou approach in discussions like this with a very brave and rather weakly backed up statement like "No.2 policy was happening more at Renault, than Ferrari." Just in case - it's the only thought I have about this subject.

[Schuttelberg]

2) Alonso benefited from team orders that year with Fisichella (Germany, China) while Schumacher didn't. Ferrari could have easily boxed him at Turkey in Istanbul but they gave Massa preference, thereby giving Massa his first win and allowing Schumacher to finish behind Alonso. Massa was faster that weekend and deserved the win but Ferrari's all hailed No.1 & No.2 policy was happening more at Renault, than Ferrari. These are fine details, that escape the casual fan.
.

I don't want to get involved in this Alonso character assassination and Schumacher statue building but this kind of selectiveness bothers me. It's another "in the races when they didn't have problems" about Hamilton and Rosberg '14, picking only parts you like for some made up result.

Although it's not a detail that should escape a casual fan because it's the size of an elephant: don't you think that there were other aspects that can be easily described as FIA team orders in the form of mid-season mass damper ban and Monza impeding Massa penalty? I will leave for you to decide if they were more or less serious than team orders in Alonso's favour.

As for team orders in general you might suspect that they exist in all kind of less vis-able forms (for the less casual fans of course!) and I have a strong suspicion Schumacher was benefiting from them the whole season, starting with choosing a team-mate. This way you can avoid those open ones and apply holier than thou approach in discussions like this with a very brave and rather weakly backed up statement like "No.2 policy was happening more at Renault, than Ferrari." Just in case - it's the only thought I have about this subject.

I'm not assassinating anyone's character. I'm just stating my opinion about the two characters. I've already said that Schumacher was more guilty on track, but better with team personnel. It's also a matter of fact that Alonso deserved the '06 championship more than Schumacher because he didn't make any driver errors. (Australia & Hungary)

The rest of your post is all to do with speculation and I'm sorry, but I'm really poor at discussing conspiracy theories and getting into hypothesis. It really makes my head turn. I don't know whether the mass damper was legal. Alonso did not block Massa at Monza because he was too busy trying to catch the line himself and I'm certainly not getting into the Schumacher selecting his No.2 etc. etc.

I'm only dealing with things I know for sure and they are :

1) Alonso deserved the 2006 championship.
2) Schumacher cheated at Monaco in Q.
3) Schumacher is a much better team man than Alonso. Alonso isn't one.
4) Alonso '100%' with evidence benefited from TO in 2006. With MS, we don't know. No proof.
5) I'm only discussing character traits of the two, not putting either down as both are phenomenal champions.

@iotar- I didn't like the tone of your response. I sensed that you feel I'm here to tarnish Alonso. May be, you just read until the end of the debate.

[Vasconia]

[I think Alonso is a lot less emotional than people tend to think. He simply defend his team.

When he was driving a blue car, he criticized some moves from Ferrari and Schumacher (can someone criticize him for that?). When he drove a red car he always said how big Ferrari is. Now he drives for McLaren and always support the team even when results are embarrasing.

That´s not being emotional, that´s being a team player.

Sorry, I call it hypocrisy.

In 2006 when Ferrari started to put Alonso and Renault under pressure, he criticized publicly the team. Moreover, he had some unfortunate words about Ferrari which had one consequence. Tod said he would never hire Alonso. An intelligent guy would have never said those hard words because you never now where you will be in the future.

When things go wrong Alonso has showed more than once that he is not a good team player, always annoying the staff of team with his comments, sometimes made passionately but on other occasions as part of his own interests and politics.

He spoke badly about Ferrari, then he joined Ferrari . He said he would never go back to Mclaren, now he is Mclaren again and collaborating with his "enemy" Ron. Man, Alonso is an awesome driver but as team player and as a coherent guy he is terrible.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

[I think Alonso is a lot less emotional than people tend to think. He simply defend his team.

When he was driving a blue car, he criticized some moves from Ferrari and Schumacher (can someone criticize him for that?). When he drove a red car he always said how big Ferrari is. Now he drives for McLaren and always support the team even when results are embarrasing.

That´s not being emotional, that´s being a team player.

Sorry, I call it hypocrisy.

In 2006 when Ferrari started to put Alonso and Renault under pressure, he criticized publicly the team. Moreover, he had some unfortunate words about Ferrari which had one consequence. Tod said he would never hire Alonso. An intelligent guy would have never said those hard words because you never now where you will be in the future.

When things go wrong Alonso has showed more than once that he is not a good team player, always annoying the staff of team with his comments, sometimes made passionately but on other occasions as part of his own interests and politics.

He spoke badly about Ferrari, then he joined Ferrari . He said he would never go back to Mclaren, now he is Mclaren again and collaborating with his "enemy" Ron. Man, Alonso is an awesome driver but as team player and as a coherent guy he is terrible.

And I find it terrible that how people speak about an individual's personality traits, without having any interactions, purely based on what has been printed in the media. What had happened in the past holds no reference to what is happening or what can happen. Relationships build, strain and build again. Only those who have worked with Alonso, truly know what he is like. In each case, it was the teams that desperately needed him to revive themselves. He couldn't have been at Ferrari, if not for the relationships that he would have built. Even Michael wasn't a happy man when he resigned at Ferrari and there were reports that he was forced out as Monty was losing control. That means, neither Ferrari is a temple of faithfuls.

My point is, it is wiser to stay away from talking rubbish about an individual, without understanding the individual himself and the situations around him, especially when they are high profile figures where even media has only speculative information that no one can beat their chest and proclaim it is THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

[Andres125sx]

@ Andreas- Cheers! I don't think I could convince you on the team player aspect. Could I?

No, after watching Alonso in 6 different teams during 14 different seasons I know what I´m talking about. You could accuse him of being too demanding, not too sincere when talking to the media, and some more things, but not about this. He plays for the team because he knows that´s the only way to win

BTW what you said about Schumy consoling his team members as an ultimate proof of how different they are, I´ve seen it myself several times with Alonso too, both in Renault and Ferrari. They´re not that different

[Andres125sx]

[I think Alonso is a lot less emotional than people tend to think. He simply defend his team.

When he was driving a blue car, he criticized some moves from Ferrari and Schumacher (can someone criticize him for that?). When he drove a red car he always said how big Ferrari is. Now he drives for McLaren and always support the team even when results are embarrasing.

That´s not being emotional, that´s being a team player.

Sorry, I call it hypocrisy.

In 2006 when Ferrari started to put Alonso and Renault under pressure, he criticized publicly the team. Moreover, he had some unfortunate words about Ferrari which had one consequence. Tod said he would never hire Alonso. An intelligent guy would have never said those hard words because you never now where you will be in the future.

When things go wrong Alonso has showed more than once that he is not a good team player, always annoying the staff of team with his comments, sometimes made passionately but on other occasions as part of his own interests and politics.

He spoke badly about Ferrari, then he joined Ferrari . He said he would never go back to Mclaren, now he is Mclaren again and collaborating with his "enemy" Ron. Man, Alonso is an awesome driver but as team player and as a coherent guy he is terrible.

Sorry but criticizing Ferrari when you drive for Renault cant be considered a proof about you´re not a team player. Maybe just the opposite. It´s YOUR team what you must defend not the rivals

About Todt.... I better will avoid opening another OT debate about that great man

[Andres125sx]

So whoever downvoted my previous message think when Alonso criticized Ferrari when he was driving for Renault, that proved he´s not a team player???


One thing some people like to ignore. When he joined Ferrari Todt was not part of the team anymore. And when he joined McLaren, it was only after McLaren apologized publicly. Teams are not abstract entities, teams are their members, if they move out of the team or apologize for past mistakes, what´s the problem?

That´s not being hypocrite, that´s being mature. Rejecting to join a team after they´ve apologized would be immature


Now downvote this too

[F1NAC]

dunno if it's been posted but here is team radio of KR after MGU K problems including MGUk restart procedure

[Schuttelberg]

@ Andreas- Cheers! I don't think I could convince you on the team player aspect. Could I?

No, after watching Alonso in 6 different teams during 14 different seasons I know what I´m talking about. You could accuse him of being too demanding, not too sincere when talking to the media, and some more things, but not about this. He plays for the team because he knows that´s the only way to win

BTW what you said about Schumy consoling his team members as an ultimate proof of how different they are, I´ve seen it myself several times with Alonso too, both in Renault and Ferrari. They´re not that different

Sorry mate, but your biased is beginning to cover me. Michael always backed his team. Heck, even when the team told him they had had enough(pushing him out of F1). The man is a seven time world champion. Alonso?

Alonso was already negotiating in 2013!

- Didn't he wave at the team after scoring 9thin a GP to mock them?
- Was 2010 completely Ferrari's fault? He did lose a place to Button at the start?
- Why didn't he go to Brawn/Red Bull when he had contract offers from them?
-Why did he join a team he was so against as said in 2006?

If you show me one reaction, of him losing a championship and consoling the team, I will go underneath my own feet.

I have a lot of respect for Alonso, but we're talking chalk and cheese here in terms of team spirit.

Let's not draw comparisons- Michael @ 33 and Alonso @ 33 are two different people and two different champions. If you're trying to convince me that Alonso=Schumacher, this debate is going to get rather funny.

I see a lot of winks, and different emotions from your side, stating he says what he says to ultimately win- Perhaps, it would be a bright idea to enlighten other forum members with such ideas once he actually wins something with someone other than Renault.

And, you can down point me no end for that, but hey, I'm a logical hardcore Schumacher fan. And anything other than the Senna name sounds desperate!

[Schuttelberg]

So whoever downvoted my previous message think when Alonso criticized Ferrari when he was driving for Renault, that proved he´s not a team player???


One thing some people like to ignore. When he joined Ferrari Todt was not part of the team anymore. And when he joined McLaren, it was only after McLaren apologized publicly. Teams are not abstract entities, teams are their members, if they move out of the team or apologize for past mistakes, what´s the problem?

That´s not being hypocrite, that´s being mature. Rejecting to join a team after they´ve apologized would be immature


Now downvote this too

You're fighting a losing battle. You may win one on this forum, but every time you ask a Ferrari mechanic or an Enstone mechanic their love, Michael will be the name.

Unfortunately, your version of mature is hypocrite.

[Phil]

I don't want to really engage in this argument, but I do think that Michael was a very likeable character. When I think of Michael, hard-working comes to my mind immediately. A strong bond with the team too. Vettel is very similar in that regard too, even if his italian and over emphasis on wins (IMO) seem a bit exaggerated/artificial to me.

Alonso, is not that. Perhaps it's his demeanor, or generally he's been rather unhappy with the way his career has progressed since his Renault days. I remember when I was at Spa 2011 within the paddock and ALonso, well just looked like Alonso. Serious. Vettel on the other hand, even Michael, seemed much more relaxed. I can definately see such a character being a boost to a team, where perhaps a more serious one is less.

Hamilton, to be fair, seemed to have a similar phase back at McLaren, with Button being the likeable character there. Back to Vettel, Michael and Alonso - I do think however that this needs to be looked a bit in context. Vettel is at ease, coming off 4 world championships. If things don't go his way, he has also shown traits of a less happy character. Some instances in 2010 in his clashes with Webber (though the team was always morally behind him!), in 2013 after Malaysia, or throughout 2014 when he was being beaten by Ricciardo (although, honestly, I thought he handled it very well, much better than I had expected).

So, in summary; It's perhaps easy to be 'the likeable character' (the team player) when things are going your way. Arguably, history has been very favorable to Michael and Vettel too. On the rare occasion that something doesn't go your way, it's then also easy to put on the brave phase and stand behind your team. Alonso since his Renault days was in less favorable circumstances. McLaren was a difficult time, especially being beaten by a rookie, then finding himself at odds with the team, then Ferrari, coming so close only to lose. By 2013, when looking at Alonso and his team... it just felt a bit like a long and fruitless marriage that had run its course and where both parties are not really happy with one another.

[Vasconia]

Sorry but criticizing Ferrari when you drive for Renault cant be considered a proof about you´re not a team player. Maybe just the opposite. It´s YOUR team what you must defend not the rivals

About Todt.... I better will avoid opening another OT debate about that great man

You are mixing things Andres.

I have said that Alonso showed 0% of being a team player when he criticized his team and put some pressure on them when Ferrari was "coming back" in 2006.

On the other hand, I said that Alonso showed little inteligence and "no being so calm as you think" when he spoke bad words about Ferrari. He and his super fan Lobato built the widespread opinion in Spain about Ferrari being a mafia/and a cheating team. He could have joined Ferrari before but Todt didnt want a driver who had insulted the team.

Well, I am not fan of Todt but I think he did a great job in Ferrari.

[Andres125sx]

So, in summary; It's perhaps easy to be 'the likeable character' (the team player) when things are going your way. Arguably, history has been very favorable to Michael and Vettel too. On the rare occasion that something doesn't go your way, it's then also easy to put on the brave phase and stand behind your team. Alonso since his Renault days was in less favorable circumstances. McLaren was a difficult time, especially being beaten by a rookie, then finding himself at odds with the team, then Ferrari, coming so close only to lose. By 2013, when looking at Alonso and his team... it just felt a bit like a long and fruitless marriage that had run its course and where both parties are not really happy with one another.

This. It´s easy to be kind when you win 4 or 5 titles in a row, but we all have seen Schumacher and Vettel character when things don´t go so well...


Anycase this went too OT, I did a mistake trying to defend Alonso in this thread, even when he was the only one who saved Ferrari´s image last 5 seasons , my mistake

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Sebastian Vettel: It's 'game on' for Ferrari in 2015 F1 title race

Looks like Ferrari is back to Malaysia Mode.