Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Vortex37]

Do You really think that Honda have shown real parts at these photos / video? I seriously doubt it. In my opinion what we see is some turbocharger. Maybe one of the designs that were tested years ago or a real part but from another application.

I think you might be correct. They are probably doing what Mercedes did with their early engine graphic.



If we were to accept, that everything that is in the video is real..... Then looking at the cutaway drawing above, I would say that the photo of the tech holding up the housing, is possibly showing only half of the turbine housing. Though it might just be the mounting for the connecting spindle to the compressor. Also it might contain sensors. Axial flow? The other end is more interesting.

Iain.

[wuzak]

There is a very smooth transition from 3.65 bar to 1.5 bar turbo speed 111K to 60K without spike which would be expected during the downshift. How does this work?

MGUH

[gruntguru]

So there is no wastegate on the housing; does Honda run with a wastegate?

Also looking at the data from the Canadian GP at 31.3 min

There is a very smooth transition from 3.65 bar to 1.5 bar turbo speed 111K to 60K without spike which would be expected during the downshift. How does this work?

The wastegate or wastegates would not be integrated into the turbine housing, rather having separate connections to the high and low pressure exhaust ducting.

Turbo speed transitions can be made at almost any rate desired using the MGUH to brake or accelerate the shaft.

[Tommy Cookers]

turbo speed transitions ie 'time constant' can't be better than around 100 millisec ?
there's a lot of inertial load
(I once did this sort of design calculation for a living)

the time constant of the combined ICE and permanently slaved mgu-k will be maybe 25 millisec ?
as with N/A F1 the shifting phases will be managed by modulation of ignition, fuelling, and throttle plates
nominally the complete shift takes less than 50 millisec

so managed turbo throttling etc will be used to help the turbo behaviour in the shifting phases ?

[PlatinumZealot]

So there is no wastegate on the housing; does Honda run with a wastegate?

Also looking at the data from the Canadian GP at 31.3 min

There is a very smooth transition from 3.65 bar to 1.5 bar turbo speed 111K to 60K without spike which would be expected during the downshift. How does this work?

Also the data shows the fuel flow at above 101KG/Hr

Hard to tell. I am trying to see if there is wastegate pipe connecting to the exhaust pipe. But i see none. If there is a wastegate or two Maybe its exhaust pipe is not connected?

[pgfpro]

I agree with you on this one. From all the testing I have been doing on my own compound system and running numbers on my engine simulator high intake boost numbers can be your friend. Keeping in mind high intake boost numbers don't always mean more output power.

Why is that so?
And have you been using these numbers across your rev range. Keep in mind this high boost condition is very momentary on the Honda Engine.
I'm not disagreeing with the use of such high boost pressure in some cases. I just believe that most of the time it's one bar less, with more conventional A:F levels for max power.
What is your support of excessive air, knowing well that more power is required to pump this air resulting in higher temperatures?

The reason I think its so is because as you approach the upper rpm fuel limit you can load the turbo with the MGUH and lean the A/F ratio and pull more energy from the turbo. If you run it full rich you will be hitting the fuel limit at a lower boost with less energy. The difference from my calculations are about 20HP.

So I think were on the same page?
Upper rpm only.
Lean condition only.

Also this part of discussions is at WOT. There are some other tricks I can see the MGUH being a generator also.

[ringo]

Ok i understand what you are suggesting now. I figured more or less the higher A:F are workable, but i didn't really see reasons. But from this video they clearly are doing this. It would be interesting to see their after intercooler temperatures.
It's very sad that after a year and a half we still have little or no official information from the engine makers about these engines.
Even the V8's are still somewhat shrouded in mystery.

[pgfpro]

Ok i understand what you are suggesting now. I figured more or less the higher A:F are workable, but i didn't really see reasons. But from this video they clearly are doing this. It would be interesting to see their after intercooler temperatures.
It's very sad that after a year and a half we still have little or no official information from the engine makers about these engines.
Even the V8's are still somewhat shrouded in mystery.

I'm with you on this one!!! I can't believe we don't have any info on these power units yet???

[dren]

James Allen said the PU is about 120hp down on the Mercedes and the upgrade is expected to bring around 50hp to Spa. He also stated that even though Honda was finally confident in running the PU at full power at the last race (guessing qualification), the ERS was still dialed back a bit during the race.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/08/h ... beginning/

[GoranF1]

Thanks @Dren for that link,Omnicorse said recently that it will be 15Bhp but it is Omnicorse after all.
Allen is a bit more reaible i would say.

[PlatinumZealot]

One thing I like about these regs, it is all about who can make the most power out of every single drop of fuel and have it run for 5 races.

It is not hard to make 650 horsepower out of a 1.6 Litre engine. Likewise it is not hard to make 160 hp from a DC motor... but can you do these things with a fuel limit and small packaging size respectively and make it work at near full duty for 2000 km?? That is the difficult part.

[Postmoe]

One thing I like about these regs, it is all about who can make the most power out of every single drop of fuel and have it run for 5 races.

It is not hard to make 650 horsepower out of a 1.6 Litre engine. Likewise it is not hard to make 160 hp from a DC motor... but can you do these things with a fuel limit and small packaging size respectively and make it work at near full duty for 2000 km?? That is the difficult part.

And almost without testing. This is the critical part. Fuel efficency would be way easier to reach with more testing.

[mclaren111]

Stefan Johansson:

And he warned that even when Honda dominated with McLaren in the Senna-Prost era, the Japanese marque worked hard in F1 for several years before that.

“The early days were no walk in the park,” said Johansson on his blog. “I know that very well as I drove the first car they entered in 1983 with Spirit and the scenario was not that much different than it is today.”

I just hope they can perform a miracle for next year over the Winter break (Summer break where I am)

[Blackout]

Thanks @Dren for that link,Omnicorse said recently that it will be 15Bhp but it is Omnicorse after all.
Allen is a bit more reaible i would say.

James Allen reliable?
Arai said 15hp.

[radosav]

Thanks @Dren for that link,Omnicorse said recently that it will be 15Bhp but it is Omnicorse after all.
Allen is a bit more reaible i would say.

James Allen reliable?
Arai said 15hp.

Well if Arai was speaking in english it may be that people didn't understand him cause fifteen and fifty sound very similar with his poor english!